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@MW staff: credit limit and credit level
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Milksop at try
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Message 6162 - Posted: 14 Nov 2008, 20:10:21 UTC
Last modified: 14 Nov 2008, 20:44:42 UTC

Approximately two weeks ago I made the faster apps public. At the same time I suggested a credit adjustment to keep things fair. Now, I think it is necessary to reinforce that suggestion. I've just seen, that SETI.Germany (among others) has given the advice not to crunch MW anymore. I'm sorry that it appears necessary for some well respected members of the BOINC community to take such measures, but in fact they are right.

The current situation is simply unbearable. I won't talk about cross project parity here, as this would just be another heated debate. I talk about the intra project fairness between the crunchers here at Milkyway. There is no correlation between the work done and the credit awarded.
Just an example, a very fast Core2 comes close to the 300WU/core limit. It will be awarded with slightly above 2,500 credits per core and day. If it is faster than 288s per WU (reaching the WU limit), it will actually get less credits per day than a slower box. At the opposite side of the spectrum just take a really ancient PentiumPro with 180MHz or so. It will take more than two hours for the same WU, but will get close to 260 credits for it (instead of just 8). It will only be able to calculate 10 of them a day or so, but will still get the same 2,500 something credits/day. I think it is not fair that the owner of the fast CPU calculates 30 times as many WUs a day and will not get a single credit more.

That is the result of that extremely stupid credit limit. Owners of fast boxes don't get more credits as already possible with the old app (and Linux64), despite calculating vastly more WUs. But now even extremely slow CPUs are getting the same! That is what needs to be corrected immediately.

And finally, I would like to draw the attention of the project staff to that table, referred to by David Anderson about two weeks ago. He claimed MW awards to much credits, as the average level was about a factor 1.9 higher than SETI according to that table. Not argueing about if this "calibration" to Seti makes sense or not, but the reaction of the project was to lower the credit limit to the current value of 0.03 credits/s and not to adjust the credits per WU. What is the result today? That factor is now at 2.4, hardly a success of that attempt.

To summarize it, the only sensible solution is to abandon the credit limit to make it fair again between the crunchers at this project. At the same time you can think about an adjustment to the general credit level to stay more in line with other BOINC project if you feel this is important (personally I would). As my app is generally a factor of 50 to 60 faster than the old one, I suggested already 2 weeks ago a division by that. That means about 4 to 5 credits per WU. Only users of the 64Bit Linux app (v1.24 supplied by Crunch3r) would see a significant decrease of the awarded credits. As about 98% of the crunchers here at MW are using either Windows or Linux on x86 CPUs, you can also distribute the faster app to all participants. The remaining 2% or so would have one or two weeks time to crunch for another project until you release the new app already announced for last week. I think this should be doable.

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Message 6173 - Posted: 15 Nov 2008, 4:59:42 UTC - in response to Message 6162.

This is true. However, the new assimilator just got finished yesterday so we will be releasing the new app within a week and we will have to see how it compares.
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Message 6174 - Posted: 15 Nov 2008, 6:41:00 UTC

Sounds good, Dave. I'm looking forward to see it released. :-)
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Message 6178 - Posted: 15 Nov 2008, 10:39:59 UTC - in response to Message 6162.


And finally, I would like to draw the attention of the project staff to that table, referred to by David Anderson about two weeks ago. He claimed MW awards to much credits, as the average level was about a factor 1.9 higher than SETI according to that table.


I wonder if DA has been harassing the heck out of PS3Grid for giving out 6 1/2 times as much credit as seti? Better yet I wonder if the admins there even care! If MW is giving away so much credit why aren't there 100,000 people here crunching? (beside the fact that not everyone could get work anyway) Looking at that chart I didnt' see any project that gives the same amount of credit as seti. Some are lower, some are higher. Higher becomes more realivant the higher the number goes.

And one last thing, if seti had NOT cut their credits in 1/2 over time then MW would not be heavy handed in awarded credits.

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Message 6180 - Posted: 15 Nov 2008, 11:09:14 UTC - in response to Message 6178.
Last modified: 15 Nov 2008, 11:10:45 UTC


I wonder if DA has been harassing the heck out of PS3Grid for giving out 6 1/2 times as much credit as seti? Better yet I wonder if the admins there even care!


Hehe, it's funny to see how everyone tries to compare "normal" projects that use the CPU for their calculations with PS3GRID/GPUGRID. I don't mean only your post now, but I have tried to explain it in a few other project fora too...

The Cell processor of the PS3 and especially a Nvidia GPU does a lot more work in the same time like a regular CPU, therefore people get more credits for their work done. PS3GRID/GPUGRID is using FLOPs counting - AFAIK the prefered way to give credits. They only give credits based on the work that is actually done.
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Message 6181 - Posted: 15 Nov 2008, 14:19:06 UTC - in response to Message 6173.

This is true. However, the new assimilator just got finished yesterday so we will be releasing the new app within a week and we will have to see how it compares.

Are you not sure the optimised app gives valid results? Then why grant them credits at all? Credits are only for proven valid results, not just some data sent back.

I trust Milksop on his app, you knew about it for quite some time, probably far longer than the making public of it by him. You decided actively to ignore it and instead wrecked the credit system here as Milksop said. It was you active decision against an optimised app, you could have just sent it out to everyone as MilkyWay@home 2.01, would have been a matter of minutes probably, and hours to days to get your science up to date.

Alternative, if you don't trust those optimised apps, could only have been to put all on pending until you decide to use it yourself.
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Message 6194 - Posted: 15 Nov 2008, 19:36:53 UTC - in response to Message 6181.

This is true. However, the new assimilator just got finished yesterday so we will be releasing the new app within a week and we will have to see how it compares.

Are you not sure the optimised app gives valid results? Then why grant them credits at all? Credits are only for proven valid results, not just some data sent back.

I trust Milksop on his app [..]

The faster app delivers valid results. This was not only checked by me but also the project itelf.
I guess Dave is just curious how the performance of the new app compares to the old as well as the faster one.

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Message 6195 - Posted: 15 Nov 2008, 20:00:00 UTC
Last modified: 15 Nov 2008, 20:02:09 UTC

Milksop is right in about everything.

The creditlimit is pure nonsense. But not funny at all.


Regarding the amount of given credit:

The credits per second are way too high.

Take Primegrid as a measure, than you have a very good but not exorbitant "paying" project to compare.

Do it at best yesterday! Not somewhen in some unknown future.

If you want to be part of the boinc community you have to compare with the other projects. This needs not be SETI but you should be anywhere in the scope of the other boinc projects.

This is so simple a fact that I really cannot understand why this hasn't already been done.

And regarding the question what to compare with what. This is simple too. Milksop application is not an optimized one. His would be the standard level. The former application is an uncomparable heap of unnecessary calculations not to be compared to anything.
Optimized would mean to further integrate various instruction sets and so on. But according to what milksop wrote what he did, his appl. is a great achievement compared to the former ..., but in no way "optimized", compared to what degree of optimization there is in for example the seti appl..
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Message 6198 - Posted: 15 Nov 2008, 20:20:30 UTC - in response to Message 6195.

And regarding the question what to compare with what. This is simple too. Milksop application is not an optimized one. His would be the standard level. The former application is an uncomparable heap of unnecessary calculations not to be compared to anything.
Optimized would mean to further integrate various instruction sets and so on. But according to what milksop wrote what he did, his appl. is a great achievement compared to the former ..., but in no way "optimized", compared to what degree of optimization there is in for example the seti appl..

That is the exact reason why I've put "optimization" in quotation marks in my profile. I guess with some more effort one can make the app still a lot faster. And not only by incorporating some SSEx stuff. There are still some high level things left.

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Message 6199 - Posted: 15 Nov 2008, 20:28:33 UTC - in response to Message 6180.
Last modified: 15 Nov 2008, 20:31:59 UTC


I wonder if DA has been harassing the heck out of PS3Grid for giving out 6 1/2 times as much credit as seti? Better yet I wonder if the admins there even care!


Hehe, it's funny to see how everyone tries to compare "normal" projects that use the CPU for their calculations with PS3GRID/GPUGRID. I don't mean only your post now, but I have tried to explain it in a few other project fora too...



It wasn't a put down of PS3Grid. I'd heard some discussions on it relating to it using GPU's and what model numbers. I don't have the equipment and really not interested in that type of project. I have a very narrow band of interests in science projects as can be seen by my stats.

Its another example that just because credits are high doesn't mean everyone flocks to them for credits! I'm not advocating that MW bumps their credits up to match PS3Grid, just that I think lowering them to match seti's really doesn't do anything good overall. I don't have a problem lowering them some, but when no other project out of all the projects out there even matches seti DA doesn't have a leg to stand on. If David P. lowers the credit here to say 1.5 he's still in a decent position with others that are higher than seti. And anyone says anything he can defend the project over what he thinks can be awarded. Too high and DA will be around harassing again, too low and we know that DA NEVER EVER pressures a lower paying project to bring their credits up to par!
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Message 6205 - Posted: 16 Nov 2008, 2:54:33 UTC - in response to Message 6195.

Milksop is right in about everything.

The creditlimit is pure nonsense. But not funny at all.


Regarding the amount of given credit:

The credits per second are way too high.

Take Primegrid as a measure, than you have a very good but not exorbitant "paying" project to compare.

Do it at best yesterday! Not somewhen in some unknown future.

If you want to be part of the boinc community you have to compare with the other projects. This needs not be SETI but you should be anywhere in the scope of the other boinc projects.

This is so simple a fact that I really cannot understand why this hasn't already been done.

And regarding the question what to compare with what. This is simple too. Milksop application is not an optimized one. His would be the standard level. The former application is an uncomparable heap of unnecessary calculations not to be compared to anything.
Optimized would mean to further integrate various instruction sets and so on. But according to what milksop wrote what he did, his appl. is a great achievement compared to the former ..., but in no way "optimized", compared to what degree of optimization there is in for example the seti appl..



Funny....you are sitting there complaining about the difference in credit...but you also sit there with a 16k RAC.

Seems kinda hypocritical to me.

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Message 6212 - Posted: 16 Nov 2008, 9:40:45 UTC - in response to Message 6205.
Last modified: 16 Nov 2008, 10:04:45 UTC

Hej, didn't you leave out strategy #4 for people wanting to force their opinion upon others without having any argument?

#1 Spamming the media with unreasonable headlines. Done!

#2 Ignoring all arguments, since you have no chance in a discussion! Done!

#3 Creating an allmighty enemy outside! Done! DA!

#4 Finding senseless parallels about money, employers and bank accounts which have to contain at least 3 logical errors! Still missing.

#5 Disparaging all those who think different by ridiculing or insulting comparisms? Oh yes we did also have this!
(by the way, doesn't some of you "We deserve all credits we can think of"s feel ashamed when your colleagues call others "gestapo" or member of the kkk? I were! And i would express that. But truly, having heard such words I would have stopped sticking around with them long ago.)

#6 Trying to personally disparage "opponents" Nice try now. But so predictable, boring and meaningless. No good conduction, I've seen better ones in the kindergarden.

Oh no, I just remember, cruncher supporter already did #4 for all of you! So the sequence is still as it should be!
Not a really good performance at all, perhaps to much sticking to the basics in the end.

Oh yes, and I would be prepared and willing, that all those credits from the disputed timeline were quartered or zeroed. Are you, too?
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Message 6213 - Posted: 16 Nov 2008, 12:48:07 UTC - in response to Message 6212.


#4 Finding senseless parallels about money, employers and bank accounts which have to contain at least 3 logical errors! Still missing.


How about this parallel... every time such an "issue" pops up in the boinc fora, it's to 99% comming from one of you teammates, demanding the Admins to do as it pleases you. (Cosmo,Predictor,MW ...and the list goes on and on ...)

If the Admin(s) don't comply, your team starts to harass them or the people on the board till a point is reached where they got no other choice but to ban you or one of your teammates, which now leads us directly to the next point...


...(by the way, doesn't some of you "We deserve all credits we can think of"s feel ashamed when your colleagues call others "gestapo" or member of the kkk?


Wasn't it your team that posted a picture of the Predictor Admin showing him as Adolf Hitler ? ...
That one lead to a permanent ban of lots of your teammates...


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Message 6215 - Posted: 16 Nov 2008, 14:31:46 UTC - in response to Message 6213.
Last modified: 16 Nov 2008, 14:33:07 UTC

Hi Cruncher, did you ever come to think about that your insults wouldn't get any jota better because someone else did do a similar mistake anywhen?

And besides that: I was nearly the first who heavily criticized the picture with the faces of the most famous dictators. So don't try to blandish your infamous comparisms. Of another caricature I don't know of.

And I don't exactly know which team you mean. I think it was someone fron banned for life but no former member of SG. And I couldn't leave Banned for Life anymore because my account was deleted.

So try your cheap excuses elsewhere. And before I discuss such aspects with you, you should massively step up your level of moral integrity .
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Message 6217 - Posted: 16 Nov 2008, 15:23:52 UTC - in response to Message 6215.

Hi Cruncher, did you ever come to think about that your insults wouldn't get any jota better because someone else did do a similar mistake anywhen?

And besides that: I was nearly the first who heavily criticized the picture with the faces of the most famous dictators. So don't try to blandish your infamous comparisms. Of another caricature I don't know of.

And I don't exactly know which team you mean. I think it was someone fron banned for life but no former member of SG. And I couldn't leave Banned for Life anymore because my account was deleted.


It was a SG member... and the "baned for life" was founded (for only one purpose..to continue harassing and annoy the admin & people) after your temmates got banned the first time for harassing the admin and people on the fora that didn't agree with you point of view.


So try your cheap excuses elsewhere. And before I discuss such aspects with you, you should massively step up your level of moral integrity .


No excuse here... just showing the parallels taken by your teammates and the little but vocal group of yours.

Maybe you should step of your high horse and question your 'moral integrity' since it is once again your team and teammates trying to force your views on the project & people here ... What happens next, if they don't agree or act fast enough in the way you want them to ? Post pictures again or start calling names ?

... same pattern as many times before.

However, i'm done talking to you since this is no 'discussion' of opinions, no use going any further then.

Have a nice day.




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Message 6236 - Posted: 17 Nov 2008, 5:33:04 UTC - in response to Message 6217.
Last modified: 17 Nov 2008, 5:34:18 UTC

It was a SG member... and the "banned for life" was founded (for only one purpose..to continue harassing and annoy the admin & people) after your teamates got banned the first time for harassing the admin and people on the fora that didn't agree with you point of view.

Let the record show that it was *I* who created the Banned for Life team after my acct was banned 'til 2038. And the more DLB felt harassed by it the better. Blame Misfit.
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Message 6257 - Posted: 18 Nov 2008, 8:39:46 UTC - in response to Message 6215.

Hi Cruncher, did you ever come to think about that your insults wouldn't get any jota better because someone else did do a similar mistake anywhen?

And besides that: I was nearly the first who heavily criticized the picture with the faces of the most famous dictators. So don't try to blandish your infamous comparisms. Of another caricature I don't know of.

And I don't exactly know which team you mean. I think it was someone fron banned for life but no former member of SG. And I couldn't leave Banned for Life anymore because my account was deleted.

So try your cheap excuses elsewhere. And before I discuss such aspects with you, you should massively step up your level of moral integrity .



This from the one who took a humorous reference to the Kredit Kops and twisted it into an ugly imaginary reference to the kkk - nice moral twisting.

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Message 6261 - Posted: 18 Nov 2008, 16:44:46 UTC

If I look at tzhe news section:

Application optimizations
November 18, 2008
I've just finished implementing a bunch of optimizations suggested by our users in the new milkyway application (we're hoping to roll it out on wednesday). On our AMD Linux cluster it's running about 2-3x faster. I'm currently getting some numbers for OSX and Dave is working on some numbers for windows. We should be releasing the code wednesday when we put the app on our server.
--Travis

And look at the times the application of Milksop is running per WU I really ask myself: WTF have they done to get only this minor increase into it? or better: WTF have they missed to keep it that slow?

If they really intend to use such a lame application and have the audacity to call it "optimised" they really don't deserve a single cycle of my CPU.

It still boils down to this question:
Are Milksops applications reliable or not?
If they're not, they don't deserve any credits at all.
If they are, they have to be made the official application asap.
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Message 6263 - Posted: 18 Nov 2008, 18:49:47 UTC - in response to Message 6261.

Are Milksops applications reliable or not? If they are, they have to be made the official application asap.


It was supposidly tested before Milksap released it to the public. I believe that what Travis is claiming is that the "new" app is 2-3x faster than Milksap's app. due to some things being pointed out in the past that were changed. I'm sure that when it is released someone will be able to make it many times faster yet.
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Message 6273 - Posted: 18 Nov 2008, 23:15:41 UTC - in response to Message 6263.

Well tomorrow we find out. If the new app is slower than Milksap's and the project doesn't want even more of the same mess going on that has over the past few months then they need to shut the unoffical apps out. Everyone uses the offical one released by the project or they don't process here.

I'm not a programmer, but they are talking about a better app than what they released last. And apparently it is for ALL platforms. There maybe some things that are needed so that all platforms can run it that will slow it down. That's fine by me if everyone has to use the same app.


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