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Ed.T

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Message 46280 - Posted: 18 Feb 2011, 15:39:44 UTC

Hi all,

I'm new to crunching and want to stay within budget. I am surprised at some of the numbers I'm getting. I don't want to set a crunching pace that I can't sustain. I can do the math but the usage readings I'm getting from my meter leaves me skepical to say the least...

System: Phenom II X4 at 2.1GHz w/ Nvidia 460. The meter measures 80 watts idle, 86 watts running 3x cpu WUs and 96 watts when a gpu WU is added tp the 460... what!? ??? I wouldn't guess that and can't believe it.

I get reasonable readings from the meter checking plug-in appliances around the house, just not on the computer.

By comparison, my other system a P4 with a ATI 4850 idles at 100 watts, run 2 cpu procs at 140 watts and jumps to 200 watts when a gpu task is added. Even that seems low to me but much closer to what I expected.

My swag was 300 watts from the P4/4850 and 400 watts from the Phenom/460... what do you think about that?

BTW, my budget is 300 watts continuous so I don't expect to be able to maintain my current crunch rate!

TIA, - Ed.T

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Haris Dublas

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Message 46316 - Posted: 20 Feb 2011, 0:48:23 UTC
Last modified: 20 Feb 2011, 0:59:21 UTC

I have an Athlon II x4 620 with an ATI 5670 (TDP is 80w lower than the 460). 3 cores @ stock 2.6 ghz (1.25v) running Computing for Clean Water and Collatz running on the gpu measures 155w +/-. OC'ed to 3.3ghz (1.42v) reads 170w +/-. TDP of 4850 is 37w higher than the 5670.

TDP of 460 @ stock speed full load is about 150w so I dont know why your system only measures 96w with 3 cpu cores @ full load.

Your P4/4850 readings sounds about right.

Edit: Used to have a 4850 on that machine but it seemed that the power supply is nearing its last legs. The PS temp is higher than the cpu and gpu when I OC the 4850 to 675 core, so I replaced it temporarily with the 5670 to play safe.
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Profile Keith Myers
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Message 46327 - Posted: 21 Feb 2011, 6:44:30 UTC

I haven't had a chance to put a kill-a-watt on my system yet. What I have been basing my power analysis is on is the apcupsd daemon in Linux that gives the status of the power demand coming out of my APC SU1400 UPS. It shows my total power demand at about 442 watts. That is what my AMD 965 Phenom II stock 3.4Ghz four core and GTX460 uses with a LCD screen and the DSL modem and router plugged in. So subtract maybe 10 watts or so for the ancillaries and you end up with about 425-430 watts which is what my published specs show the system should be sucking out of the wall. The 95 watts you measured with your kill-a-watts seems unreasonable. Maybe the unit is malfunctioning.

Keith

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Haris Dublas

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Message 46333 - Posted: 21 Feb 2011, 11:58:34 UTC

Probably your WUs are suspended at that time you measured (check boinc settings). My athlon 620 idles @ 74w (82w OC'ed) then adds about 20w per core @ full load.

At full load, the 460 consumes 80w more than the 5670 and the phenom II consumes more than an athlon II. Its impossible that my athlon II and 5670 consumes more than your phenom II and 460. That box only have board, cpu, gpu, 2 sticks ram and 1 hdd, no other add-on devices.
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Ed.T

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Message 46349 - Posted: 25 Feb 2011, 15:23:13 UTC - in response to Message 46333.  

Probably your WUs are suspended


No, I cycle them on and off and I do see a small change in readings when I do. I wonder if there's something wacky about the PSU that throws off the reading. It doesn't seem to be just "stitching supplies" because the reading seams reasonable on the other computer... Anyway, back it goes for replacement and I'll write again with readings from another unit.

-Ed.[/i]
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Ed.T

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Message 46786 - Posted: 28 Mar 2011, 14:07:15 UTC

Got a new unit, it behaves the same way on my desktop system; I've swapped enough pieces to say that there's something wacky about the "hec-X" PSU... the weirdness followed it when I put in in different systems.

I've taken readings over several days on a different system that seems to report accurately on the watt-meter: a dual dual-core Opteron 280 "T server board has 4 512MB memory sticks and a IDE disk running XP professional. System is powered by a Antec Earthwatts 430 (that claims 85% efficiency.) I run WCG on the CPUs and get give or take 1200 BOINC points a day.

I don't have any CPU power saving enabled so this system runs about 185 Watts constantly whether or not it's running apps. At .13 USD for a kilowatt-hour, that's about $18 USD a month.

I originally got this system with slower Opteron 265s in it, that ran at 165 watts. I have another similar system with 280 "A" chips, it runs about 205 watts.

I put a ATI 4850 in it t run MW WUs. The clocks are set to 600/420 with MSI Afterburner. I under-clock the core slightly and the memory a lot; like others, I don't see a performance difference with a slower memory clock.

Idle, the system power draw rises to 245 watts; that's sixty watts for just plugging in the 4850. I understand that other boards have better idle numbers but, really, who what's their cruncher to be idle?

With the lower clocks, the system crunches just under 300 watts. (With the stock clocks, the system draws a bit over 310 watts.)

The 300 watts is input to the power supply. If I accept the published 85% efficiency of the PSU the output of the PSU is about 255 watts... so I'm thinking maybe if I take two memory sims out (about 15 watts) I can squeeze another 4850 into the system and sill only be at 85% of the PSUs 430 watt continuous rating...

Mystified:
I was playing with screen savers and saw that the power usage dropped 15 watts using the "Mystify" screen saver vs. the WCG screen saver. WOW! Imagine that times all the machines doing GPU processing.... not to be however. Looking at the GPU usage chart, usage drops to 85% and WU run-times increase accordingly. Strange, the few other screen savers I tested (including the similar bezier curves) still allow the GPU to run at full usage. So, the "Mystify" screen saver is not to be used; too bad it's been my favorite since it was first offered way back when.

So, I'm way over my compute budget. This one system spends my $30/month target and the other about 200 watts ($20/mo). Oh well, I'll likely keep it up until I see a few electric bills that hurt then decide what to do.

- Ed.

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Zydor
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Message 46788 - Posted: 28 Mar 2011, 17:27:02 UTC - in response to Message 46786.  

.... With the lower clocks, the system crunches just under 300 watts. (With the stock clocks, the system draws a bit over 310 watts.)

The 300 watts is input to the power supply(my bolding - Zy). If I accept the published 85% efficiency of the PSU the output of the PSU is about 255 watts... so I'm thinking maybe if I take two memory sims out (about 15 watts) I can squeeze another 4850 into the system and sill only be at 85% of the PSUs 430 watt continuous rating...


For a rated 300w PSU, 300watts is the maximum it can supply to the PC, not what it draws from the mains. If the PSU has a 85% rating (which an old Hec certainly does not), the PSU would draw 353w from the mains supply if it needs to power 300w. With the Hec, it would not surprise to find in reality that maximum figure climbing to 400w from the mains at max 300w to the PC.

If your PSU has a 430w rating @85% efficiency - eg your antec, and all 430w used to supply a system - never a good idea, a reserve must always be planned for - its draw from the Mains Supply would be 506w. That Antec is a quality PSU, good choice.

I suspect the "wierdness" you described came from the Hec. Cheaper PSUs not only have a poor efficiency rating, but can cause problems in the supply side to the PC. There are three voltages supplied by PC PSUs, 12v 5v 3.3v. If the PC need for supply of any of these out-paces the PSU ability to supply that individual voltage - and it makes no odds what the overall rating is - could be a 10mega watts rated PSU to exagerate - the PSU will fail to supply that requirement at that voltage and step down the voltage. End result is the relevant componant is underpowered, and "wierdness" ensues.

For anyone, a good PSU is essential, for Crunchers its a no brainer. For example, taking your excellent 430w antec. By comparison, an el cheapo 430 non certified, is likely running at 60% efficiency. As a hypothetic, assume the el cheapo runs at a suicidal 430w (always plan a 25% reserve for PSU output not its rated output). At 60% efficiency, that would draw 716w from the mains. Thats 210w more than the antec ...... work that out at 7x24 crunching at price per kilowatt hour .... A quality PSU literally pays for itself many times over its usual 5-10 year life compared to el cheapo brands.

You stated you have a 300w budget. With that as a stake in the ground, stick with the antec supplied system, it will supply it safely and with ease, and be far cheaper than a bucket shop PSU. The latter will cost you a great deal of cash. I would dump/sell off any other system you have and stick to the one supplied by the antec if your overiding Driver is a power budget of 300w. That antec would also alow an expansion for - whatever - in the PC at a later date if opportunity and need arose.

Regards
Zy
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Ed.T

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Message 46817 - Posted: 29 Mar 2011, 15:28:54 UTC - in response to Message 46788.  

Well, I think I have RAC-fever. (I adopt that from my astronomy hobby where I suffer from "aperture fever.") Even if I go over-budget putting a second 4850 in the system, I'm like to up the budget for a while just to see the points pour out of it. I want to be in this of the long run though and am sure that budget will cure my "fever" before too long.

The Antec is running like a champ on that (a Tyan) MB. The Tyan is my favorite MB now because it has two pci express slots. Strange, though, the Antec wouldn't even start the fans on my other (Supermicro) MB. Google-ing, I did find that Antec has trouble with Supermicro boards. I don't know whether that's something do with the power-good logic; I do notice the PSUs that work have a bit more +3v and +5v to give than the Antec offers.

I ended up with the OEM PSU on the Supermicro. WOW IS IT LOUD! It's big enough that it should run two 4850s on the Tyan board if the Antec won't. I can't find an efficiency spec on it but now that I have the Tyan system fairly well categorized, I should be able to plug it in and infer what it is. Sounds like something worth knowing; I think I'll do that...

- Ed.T
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Zydor
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Message 46818 - Posted: 29 Mar 2011, 15:42:53 UTC - in response to Message 46817.  

The OEM PSU - do you know the make and model number, should be on the manufacturers plate. You could then google that to get the Formal Ratings. Dont hesitate to post again as needed, there will always be someone around with an answer for you.

Sounds like you are enjoying yourself - good luck with it :)

Regards
Zy
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Message 46846 - Posted: 30 Mar 2011, 18:11:11 UTC

Sounds like you are enjoying yourself


Yes I am!

I installed the second 4850 came today. I had to hunt down a single width card because my old Tyan server board only has one slot between the two pci express connectors. I made a dummy plug, extended the desktop and clocked down the GPUs before starting MW. The screen went wacky and the system crashed.

At first it seemed like the like Antec couldn't handle the two boards so I took the old one out and left the new one in. The system still crashed; turns out that the new (Diamond) 4850 won't run with the memory clock turned down much. Seeing that, I put the old 4850 back in and I have had them both crunching for a few hours now.

Two 4850s powered by a 430 watt PSU... No complaints here!

I clock both cards at 500/700 to save power and run cooler. The watt meter is reading 395 watts into the power supply. By math, that should be about 335 watts out of the PSU's rated 430 watts, less than 80% utilization.

Well, time will tell if this is "robust" but in the short term I'm hopeful for a little kick upwards in the standing! :)

- Ed.T





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Profile Chris Skull
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Message 46847 - Posted: 30 Mar 2011, 18:26:58 UTC

Phenom II 965 + HD 6970:
4 cores + GPU 100% = 330-340 W
( CPU 100% GPU 0% = 225 W )
( CPU 10% GPU 0% = 160 W )

AMD Power ;-)
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Message 46848 - Posted: 30 Mar 2011, 19:19:09 UTC
Last modified: 30 Mar 2011, 19:25:11 UTC

Nicely done Ed :)

Let the dust settle, then slowly - one step at a time, play with the GPU/Memory settings on the cards. The memory setting on the 4850 will go low, just need to find the sweet spot. Run it with as low a memory setting as you can, MW is not sensitive at all to bandwith on memory, so its pointless and a waste of power having memory high.

Keep faith with the Antec, its a good PSU and will not let you down. Watch your card temperatures, with two cards in the box, good airflow in the Box likely to be needed to prevent overheating.

Looks like you got your 300w budget marker - take a bow, and give the man a cigar :)

Regards
Zy
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Message 46849 - Posted: 30 Mar 2011, 20:18:28 UTC - in response to Message 46847.  

Hi Chris,

Is that measured with a kilowatt meter? The few reviews I've read show about a 250 watt increase in watts "under load" for the 6970 but also I've seen that MW (on my system at least, YMMV) doesn't seem to use all the power eating features available on the GPU. Worse, it seems that even something trivial happening on the screen seems to block GPU resources used by MW. I wrote about the "mystify" screen saver; since then I noticed that the MSI Afterburner partially blocking the BOINC manager drops GPU utilization (and power used) by about 15% as well. (So my observation is that for the most GPU points, I won't assume that even something trivial isn't slowing down the GPU.)
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Ed.T

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Message 46851 - Posted: 30 Mar 2011, 21:50:23 UTC - in response to Message 46848.  

Zy,

Thanks for you and the others making a new guy feel welcome. I realize that with two million plus users that there isn't much new that will show up in the forums so I doubly appreciate the comments and feedback.

I've been working on cooling along the way. My two CPUs are running at 54C and the 4850s at 65C and 75C. (The single slot board doesn't cool as well as the dual slot board does.) Those temps are with the side of the case open. Even so, I added air ducts from the outside of the case to the CPU fans (good for a 5C drop) and a point of use fan blowing outside air onto the GPU fans (good for about a 8C drop.) A heat shield under the disk drive lets the PSU draw cool air in around it while hot air from the front CPU blowing near it goes elsewhere. (Before that, the drive was "uncomfortable" to keep a finger on it, not it's merely warm to the touch.) In addition, there's cardboard and duct tape to guide what air flow there is in the (open) case to and from where I guessed it would do the most good.

As is, it's not pretty sight but I'm okay with that since I plan to put it in the basement. Come summer, it's the only place that stays cool.

Thanks again,
-Ed.
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Message 46852 - Posted: 30 Mar 2011, 22:20:51 UTC

Hello Ed!

Realy good Work :-)

Its funny. I'm also pretty new here and I have also assembel a system with 2 HD 4850 (Sapphire) My System is an AMD-Athlon 64/3500+ with 4 G RAM and an Asus A8N-SLI SE dual PCIe Board.
(Everything bought in parts from second Hand-Market - ebay - for 160 EURO).
But I'm on the beginning with power-measurements. I will continue on WE with this work. I hope I can also reduce the mem speed with the afterburner. (Ati Tray Tools worked only with a singel GPU System)
I'm very glad with your posted experiances here and I enjoy to stay here in contact.

greetings
Franz (AUSTRIA)
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Message 46854 - Posted: 30 Mar 2011, 22:46:18 UTC

Ed

Card temperatures are ok, no need to get worried with 4850s until they start to breach 90. If they get to 95-100, its turn them off time until you figure out whats happening. If you have not done it lately, turn off the beast and air-blow the CPU, GPU, and PSU fans to get rid of built up dust - if dust has built up, cleaning the fans makes a huge difference to airflow and temperature.

Watch the power draw like a hawk. A 4850 under full stress load will pull 260w by itself. two of them would be 520w, with all the other PC components drawing on top of that. You are on default GPU of 700, with memory turned down, and thats the likely reason the Antec 430 is coping, probably pulling either side of 120w each card as they are not fully stressed.

I would strongly advise not to overclock at all, including the CPU. Your Antec does not have the clout to cope with overclocking as its max output is 430w max, and will downvolt its supply if overstressed. From what you have said its ok at present, but watch carefully over a few days, especially if you detect any wierd PC behaviour that cannot be explained by other factors.

Regards
Zy
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Message 46920 - Posted: 2 Apr 2011, 7:17:41 UTC

Hi Chris,

Is that measured with a kilowatt meter?


Yes of course. But its my ( full equipped ) main engine.
Also the 6970 is a 6950 with 6970 bios mod... but there is only a small difference in Power usage.


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Message 46961 - Posted: 4 Apr 2011, 21:51:48 UTC - in response to Message 46920.  

That's nice!

My rig is a couple generations behind both in computational power and power usage.

I have to admit that my main goal is to compute for WCG. Doing that alone, the dual Opteron is competitive with the Phenom II X3 on my desktop (and the server board ready-to-go with CPUs memory cost about the same as I spent on the heatsink for my Phenom chip!) GPUs were and afterthought but I did have a 4850 laying around after I upgraded my desktop with an NVIDA board for 3D gaming.

I fist tried PRIMEGRID but its GPU WUs still used about 25% of a CPU and I didn't want to take that much from WCG. I settled in on MW@H because MW WUs steal very little CPU time. (Though on this system MW WUs seem to take closer to .1 CPU rather than .05 CPU as BOINC manager suggests.)

I'm hoping that Intel Sandy Bridge or capabilities like it will come down in price (significantly) in a year or so and will look at an upgrade then. Maybe by then those 6970s will be $50 on ebay like the 4850s are now and I can put a couple of them in a new system at that time too. ;)

At any rate, I am seeing the expected performance gain from adding the second card. Give or take the servers actually passing out work and validating results, the system has gone from about 75k ppd to 135K ppd. (Not double because I've under-clocked the cards a little to save power and heat.) Combined, the two 4850s average a WU every 2 minutes and cycle (or drain) a 24 job queue in 50 minute to an hour depending.

The system been running for a few days and seems stable so far. I do notice that there's a little droop on the 12v line when the GPUs are going full tilt. 11.91 volts idle drops to 11.72 volts. That is still well above the 11.4 volt minimum in the AT spec. Fine, but I'll continue to watch that voltage over time. I think that if I ever see that going down, that would be the sign that the PSU is failing. No sign of that yet.

Thanks again,
- Ed.T
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Message 47003 - Posted: 6 Apr 2011, 7:35:25 UTC - in response to Message 46788.  



For anyone, a good PSU is essential, for Crunchers its a no brainer. For example, taking your excellent 430w antec. By comparison, an el cheapo 430 non certified, is likely running at 60% efficiency. As a hypothetic, assume the el cheapo runs at a suicidal 430w (always plan a 25% reserve for PSU output not its rated output). At 60% efficiency, that would draw 716w from the mains. Thats 210w more than the antec ...... work that out at 7x24 crunching at price per kilowatt hour .... A quality PSU literally pays for itself many times over its usual 5-10 year life compared to el cheapo brands.



Regards
Zy


This post needs to be pinned, bolded, posted to the main page, what ever it takes to make as many peeps to get to read it. Absolutly right on the money, everyone who cruches with his GPU needs to check his PSU, you will be surprised how your bill drops with an efficent supply!
btw, nowadays cheap and efficent PSUs are available from OEM manus like FSP, who reach 85% efficiency also.
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Message 47006 - Posted: 6 Apr 2011, 8:18:32 UTC - in response to Message 47003.  
Last modified: 6 Apr 2011, 8:23:42 UTC

For those still not convinced - using the 210w per hour used by el cheapo over and above the certified quality PSU:

210w per hour = 5,040w per day
Per month is : 5,040 x 30 = 151,200 or 151.2Kw Hrs

Using a rate of (sorry I'm UK) 11.5p per Kw hour, wasted by el cheapo thats £17.39 a month, or £208 a year. For that price (in UK) you are very close to the price of a 850w PSU.

Or put another way, by using el cheapo for five years you have euphamistically bought five 850w PSUs, and thrown them on the scrap heap unused - thats just one machine, if you have (say) three machines, you dumped 15 x 850w brand new Quality PSUs over 5 years - £600 a year (with no inflation added ....) thrown on the fire and burned .... (!). At the end of five years you could have used the £3,000 to pay for a reasonable second car ..... ok not exactly a Rolls Royce, but not a bone shaker either.

Also equates to getting a High End PC Machine with all the bells and whistles every 5 years, and immediately putting it through the scrapyard Crusher unused.

Chances are el cheapo will break down at either side of 4 years anyway.

You cant afford NOT to buy quality PSUs if you are a GPU Cruncher or heavyweight CPU Cruncher (a CPU will add +/- 200w to the power need when overclocked at full tilt). GPU is worst case, but dont believe for a second there is no case for CPU only Crunchers overclocked going at full tilt.

At the end of the day, you pays your money and takes your choice - of course - but I'm a skinflint, I know my choice.

Regards
Zy
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