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Profile Sarge

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Message 6160 - Posted: 14 Nov 2008, 19:58:02 UTC - in response to Message 6156.  

Whoa! To say that the credit level is "more than average" is the understatement of the year, I guess. To explain this: My Machines made 450K Cr. in more than one year, but they made almost 50k Cr. in less than 2 Weeks!

The point is, that it may be fair for the crunchers that are using the modified app. but it is really unfair for all other projects on the BOINC platform. If you decide to join BOINC to get your science work done (of course, that's what BOINC is for), you should respect the other projects there and the rules of the platform. But if you are giving 10 times more credits than every other project does, the credit-addicted crunchers stop any other project to get the most credit possible for their CPU-time (what is understandable, seen from their position).

In the End, your science work gets done, but the other projects don't get anything. Is this fair?

Just my 2 cents.


There is no unfairness when the other crunchers are equally free to crunch for this project or any other project which they choose. Furthermore, they are equally free to use the optimized apps or not use them, in the cases where those apps exist. Such apps exist for more than this project; they exist for SETI@Home as well, and others. (Enigma@Home comes to mind.)

What you call unfairness I call not investigating the options.

And the post about the 3 or 4 or 5 types of crunchers was well put.
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Profile Sarge

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Message 6161 - Posted: 14 Nov 2008, 19:59:45 UTC - in response to Message 6159.  

Cool! More wus for me :)


:P, it should take some load off the servers then.

Shouldn't Seti do the same then, they have 'official-unofficial' faster apps that give more credit.


I just addressed the same thing.
Right now, my RAC is around the highest it ever was when I used the S@H optimized apps. I guess I'll know in a while how much higher my RAC can go when most of what I am crunching, currently, is for this project.
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Milksop at try

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Message 6163 - Posted: 14 Nov 2008, 20:16:26 UTC - in response to Message 6156.  

The point is, that it may be fair for the crunchers that are using the modified app. but it is really unfair for all other projects on the BOINC platform.

It is not fair even for the crunchers at this project running all the optimized app, as the credits are awarded per runtime, not per work done. A slower computer gets more credits/WU than a faster one. I would call that credit approach at least a strange one.
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Message 6164 - Posted: 14 Nov 2008, 21:37:54 UTC
Last modified: 14 Nov 2008, 22:09:38 UTC

Hi fellow crunchers,

if you think that the credits for Milkyway w/ the optimized app are "maybe just a bit too high" then please take a look at this pc. A ten year old K6-III 400 MHz doing ~ 3.500 credits in three days? (I shut it down again for Milkyway on last sunday.) My eight year old dual PIII did 'only' ~ 4500 credits since end of last week because it also did some climateprediction calculations in the same time. If you think this is normal and justified, well, I might better start argueing with a tree. :-)

This is a question of fairness. Fairness between the people who use the optimized app and those who don't. Fairness between the people who use brand new hardware and those who use some obsolete pile of junk (as I did). And last but not least fairness between the projects, that use BOINC as a common platform for distributed computing. Not talking 'bout Seti and the other big ones, which are already fat and fed up with users, but there are many small and new projects out there which could use some more cpu cycles on our machines and they should have chance to attract also some of the users that care about credits. You might say, 'I give a **** about fairness', but then we might say, you better stay alone.

@ the projects admins: Please integrate the optimized app as soon as possible into the official software and please adjust the credit level to something more reasonable. I'm sure we will all be happy to support the project then (again). Too much to ask for?

.. ok, I think I made my point, ready to take your punch now. :-)

Regards

Alex

P.S.: public computing should also include public discussion, no?

edit: just read Travis' update on the main page. great, that you guys don't loose your humour...
I keep trying to attend a meeting of quantum physicists, but every time they agree on a location the appointed time changes and vice versa.

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Profile Sarge

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Message 6165 - Posted: 14 Nov 2008, 21:55:32 UTC - in response to Message 6164.  

P.S.: public computing should also include public discussion, no?

The tone of your post is a fair amount different from that of your teammates (the one that authored this thread and then Saenger). They were making demands, not discussing.
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Message 6166 - Posted: 14 Nov 2008, 22:24:05 UTC

Haven't the credits already been lowered? Each wu give me ~ 15, when the credit was cut back after Milksop's release it was ~ 35-40 for about the same time spent.

Milksop was nice enough to give his version for download, which many have. The 'new' app has been just around the corner for months. If the project would take the time to bother to release the new version and adjust credits then they should. Or admit they aren't going to release the new app untill '...'(actually give a date), and adjust the credits for Milksop's app. So untill then Milksop's app will ofcourse allow many to get much higher credits.


From Travis on 19 Aug 2008
That being said, in the next week or so we should have a new application out (it would have been sooner but I had to deal with this mess)

Doesn't expecting the unexpected make the unexpected the expected?
If it makes sense, DON'T do it.
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Message 6167 - Posted: 14 Nov 2008, 23:03:20 UTC
Last modified: 14 Nov 2008, 23:04:39 UTC

I might add some things to my first Post.

I like the MW@home Project and would really like to crunch further here but - as Alex said - it's a Question of Fairness.

Sorry Sarge, I didn't demand anything - I just wanted to let everyone (and there are a few of our Team reading here) know what the Majority of the People that posted at our Board is thinking about this Issue and to what Conclusion we came.

I personally think it's shame that we need to take that Step but it is neccessary.

I don't give a Foo about those who are jumping on this thread to defense their Love of Credits. I also understand the Ones who say well, just let us crunch MW and get the Hell of Credits and back yourself out somewhere. We need such Guys as well as all others - that's Part of what makes it funny to read in Project Fora.
(To me it's just as we say in German: Does a tree care if a hog rubs at it?)

But I re-iterate my Call to the Project Admins - and I appreciate the Post at the Startpage. To me it points into a good Direction.


Best Regards and have Fun
aendgraend
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Message 6168 - Posted: 14 Nov 2008, 23:15:09 UTC

I think it's a shame that for anything to get done on this project it takes a lot of people complaining about something until somebody goes 'oh.. okay well change that'.
Doesn't expecting the unexpected make the unexpected the expected?
If it makes sense, DON'T do it.
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Profile Sarge

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Message 6169 - Posted: 15 Nov 2008, 0:04:44 UTC - in response to Message 6167.  
Last modified: 15 Nov 2008, 0:06:48 UTC

I like the MW@home Project and would really like to crunch further here but - as Alex said - it's a Question of Fairness.


Then I shall repeat:

There is no unfairness when the other crunchers are equally free to crunch for this project or any other project which they choose. Furthermore, they are equally free to use the optimized apps or not use them, in the cases where those apps exist. Such apps exist for more than this project; they exist for SETI@Home as well, and others. (Enigma@Home comes to mind.)

What you call unfairness I call not investigating the options.

To add to that, I will say: no one is forcing you or anyone else to run or not run MW@Home, let alone any other BOINC associated project.

If many more people ran this project, everybody would be getting more credit, but it would even out across several people.

At least it's not like getting scores in the millions on a pinball machine game that back in the 1970's would have been scores in the hundreds or low thousands.

Sorry Sarge, I didn't demand anything - I just wanted to let everyone (and there are a few of our Team reading here) know what the Majority of the People that posted at our Board is thinking about this Issue and to what Conclusion we came.


What else can you call "we don't support your method of granting credit, so our team will not support your project (by not running it)" (and perhaps, by making your concern public, also encourage other teams and individuals not to crunch for it) but a demand? Suppose the admins did make a change you were comfortable with? What then? I'll bet many of your team would come back to crunch for MW@Home. In other words, you are boycotting.

Description of boycott - American Heritage® Dictionary
TRANSITIVE VERB: To abstain from or act together in abstaining from using, buying, or dealing with as an expression of protest or disfavor or as a means of coercion. boycotter, boycotted, boycotting, boycotts
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Brian Silvers

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Message 6170 - Posted: 15 Nov 2008, 0:23:29 UTC - in response to Message 6167.  


I don't give a Foo about those who are jumping on this thread to defense their Love of Credits. I also understand the Ones who say well, just let us crunch MW and get the Hell of Credits and back yourself out somewhere. We need such Guys as well as all others - that's Part of what makes it funny to read in Project Fora.


I know I shouldn't be replying to this, especially with what I have to say, but I suppose I'm in my "Holiday Funk" already...

Cross-Project Parity is an absolute waste of time and expense for the projects. The project admins have to be subjected to threats from folks like yourselves who mostly REFUSE to go post this kind of stuff on any of the "low paying" projects.

I've posted this MANY times now, but nobody wants to clue in on it:

If we MUST have "Cross-Project Parity", get BOINC administration (David Anderson, et al), real or perceived "credit whores", and you hardcore "must-be-fair-but-we-ignore-low-paying-projects-because-they-do-not-drop-our-BOINC-wide-position" folks COMPLETELY out of the picture on cross-project standing comparisons. Move it to an independent arbitrator or arbitrators.

ALTERNATIVELY, completely do away with BOINC-wide / cross-project comparisons and only compare / compete within indvidual projects.

The only group of people who have a real gripe at this point are Mac users, both Intel and PPC. I asked privately if someone could build an app for them, but was told that it would be a significant undertaking to obtain a system to test with...

Beyond this message, all I have to say is

"good luck with all that"

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Message 6171 - Posted: 15 Nov 2008, 3:37:01 UTC
Last modified: 15 Nov 2008, 3:38:41 UTC

It's amazing that everytime a project comes out with an optimized client that DA shows his head and demands project parity. And to really add insult to injury seti is the worse for having gobbs of optimized clients. So when those optimized clients start ramping up the credits seti does their "Credit Adjustment Dance" and then whines to all the other projects. At the rate its going we're going to be doing 100 times more science work for [B/] NO CREDIT[/B].

Same thing happened at einstein. They optimized the client trying to get partiy within the project so that the AMD people weren't abused by the Intel systems and DA comes screaming up a storm and suddenly einstein is giving 1/2 the credits they were before. And now they are getting ready to finally come out with a optimized client for EVERYONE and they are cutting back on credits again.

I admit that MW is a bit high on credits and the optimized client over emphasizes that. But with the inefficient client they were still decent in my book about the amount of credit granted. A little high but not over blown. It all boils down to if/when we get an "OFFICIAL optimized client and the credits are to be adjusted then find some common ground. The last thing any project needs to do is follow seti's advice to the point of ZERO credits for tons of work!

My 2 cents worth.
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Message 6172 - Posted: 15 Nov 2008, 4:10:49 UTC - in response to Message 6151.  

I think you could've sent this as a private message to the admins and not posted it on the forum since it doesn't involve anyone except your group. That being said I'm sorry to see you leaving. However, from what I can gather, you are displeased that there is a better application out there and dislike that the credit level is more than average. I think those are both positive things and can not justify your reasoning. Please elaborate on it so I can better understand.

Why be part of the solution when adding to the problem is far more entertaining? Because it's easier to complain, stomp your feet, then walk out the door than it is to be helpful and productive.

Milkyway@home, a wonderful project with continuing support from Misfit and BOINC Synergy.
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Message 6175 - Posted: 15 Nov 2008, 6:44:43 UTC - in response to Message 6172.  

I think you could've sent this as a private message to the admins and not posted it on the forum since it doesn't involve anyone except your group. That being said I'm sorry to see you leaving. However, from what I can gather, you are displeased that there is a better application out there and dislike that the credit level is more than average. I think those are both positive things and can not justify your reasoning. Please elaborate on it so I can better understand.

Why be part of the solution when adding to the problem is far more entertaining? Because it's easier to complain, stomp your feet, then walk out the door than it is to be helpful and productive.

Milkyway@home, a wonderful project with continuing support from Misfit and BOINC Synergy.


And this project will continue to get support from Calm Chaos as well.
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Message 6176 - Posted: 15 Nov 2008, 8:36:44 UTC - in response to Message 6171.  

It's amazing that everytime a project comes out with an optimized client that DA shows his head and demands project parity. And to really add insult to injury seti is the worse for having gobbs of optimized clients. So when those optimized clients start ramping up the credits seti does their "Credit Adjustment Dance" and then whines to all the other projects. At the rate its going we're going to be doing 100 times more science work for [B/] NO CREDIT[/B].

If you ask me it is amazing that this project has not seen wider and more vocal outcry about the excessive amounts of credit given here. In the best case it is still giving about 4 times the credit it should. From my experience, this project currently has about 10% of the resource share I have for SETI and never had more than 50% of my resource share relative to SETI, yet my RAC is nearly the same on the two projects.
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Chris S
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Message 6177 - Posted: 15 Nov 2008, 10:35:24 UTC

In the town called Happyville people earnt money by working for the local farmers. Farmer Brown grew potatoes and paid people $10 an hour to dig them. But some people worked harder than others and dug more potatoes in an hour. They felt they should get more money for more work.

So some of them left and and went to work for farmer Green who grew cabbages and paid people $5 per hudredweight. The more they dug the more they got paid.

There was also Farmer White who grew strawberries and paid people $1 per punnet. There were regular tea breaks and an active social Club.

And so everyone was happy. Those who just enjoyed picking potatoes worked for farmer Brown, Those who just enjoyed picking strawberries and liked to have a chat worked for farmer White. Those who needed the money worked for farmer Green.

Then one day a clever engineer came along who had invented a new sharper spade, and trialled it with farmer Green. Pretty soon people there were earning lots of money. People working for the other farmers got a bit upset at this, and formed picket lines outside farmer Greens farm. In the end, the Mayor of the town had to ask that all farmers made the new spade available to people and that they all paid a fair days money for a fair days work.

But of course the people who had been earning lots of money saw their savings drop quite a lot and weren't very happy. But they had a choice to either be a part of the community gathering crops for the benefit of the town, or see who could amass the most personal savings.
Don't drink water, that's the stuff that rusts pipes
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Message 6183 - Posted: 15 Nov 2008, 14:39:39 UTC - in response to Message 6151.  

I think you could've sent this as a private message to the admins and not posted it on the forum since it doesn't involve anyone except your group. That being said I'm sorry to see you leaving. However, from what I can gather, you are displeased that there is a better application out there and dislike that the credit level is more than average. I think those are both positive things and can not justify your reasoning. Please elaborate on it so I can better understand.

Since a lot of weeks the project team is actively ignoring the well known fact of the slobby code.
Since at least two weeks the only thing that needed to be done was to take Milksops app and use it as MilkyWay@home 2.01.

Everything that has happened were some announcements on the homepage, not followed up by any action at all. I simply take those empty words as just that: empty words, probably meant to deflect some criticism from the team and prevent any real action to be taken.

I don't believe a single word there as long as it's proven not to be followed by any action!
Grüße vom Sänger
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Message 6184 - Posted: 15 Nov 2008, 15:12:06 UTC
Last modified: 15 Nov 2008, 15:13:23 UTC

Saenger-To be completely honest with the usership and admin here I think you need to add that you are actively petitioning the stats sites to remove Milkyway!
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Message 6185 - Posted: 15 Nov 2008, 15:24:45 UTC - in response to Message 6184.  

Saenger-To be completely honest with the usership and admin here I think you need to add that you are actively petitioning the stats sites to remove Milkyway!

Of course I do, the credit stats of this project are completely meaningless in comparsion with other projects, why should they be listed?
Grüße vom Sänger
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Message 6186 - Posted: 15 Nov 2008, 16:12:45 UTC - in response to Message 6158.  
Last modified: 15 Nov 2008, 16:13:56 UTC

I'm OK with making the MW app the standard app just so long as SETI and Einstein do the same. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Oh, that's right. SETI doesn't complain when projects award too little credit because that means more people will continue looking for little green men. I digress...

Types of crunchers:
1. Science lovers
2. Credit lovers
3. Credit lovers who like doing science as well (so long as the credit is good)

If you are in group 1, stop complaining since more science is getting done with the opt app. If you are in group 2, there is plenty of credit. If you are in group 3, like me, you are doing more science and getting good credit. The best of both worlds.

Since that doesn't appear to cover everyone, I can only guess there must also be a group 4 which believes that projects must make everything equal. If that's the case, please take it to the next level. Don't stop with credits. Send me your money. I wouldn't want you to have more money than me just because you work harder, are smarter, take on more responsibility, work longer hours, have more experience, etc. No? How about giving everyone who crunches the same credit regardless of how many computers they have or how fast they are? That kind of defeats the purpose of having a team and competing and having stats pages doesn't it?

Oh well. Leave if you like. I'll just have to fund a way to add more machines on MW so that I can make up for the science you won't be doing (and reap the benefits of the credits as well).



You can put me in group 3. I like the science and the credit. Don't let SETI or any other project set the standard for the credit system. If you keep your's up there maybe they'll come around and increase theirs too. Again don't bow down to the pressure to realign your credit system. I continue to do other projects along with MW.
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Message 6187 - Posted: 15 Nov 2008, 17:26:49 UTC
Last modified: 15 Nov 2008, 17:27:19 UTC

I think the "extra" credits (I mean that part of the credits which some people consider as "too high") must be awarded for having to read all this whining and squabbling about credits.
Lovely greetings, Cori
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