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Message 69521 - Posted: 4 Feb 2020, 13:06:44 UTC - in response to Message 69513.  

As you say the problem seems to be the plan when the wind stops or it's cloudy, if you aren't prepared for it people will sit in the dark and be very mad at you.

Here in the US it's similar and we do have a fairly robust grid where if one part of the Country goes dark it can come back online fairly quickly IF they turn it back on. California has a whole other problem in that their distribution plants are in such bad shape they are CAUSING outages, so even if they go down they can't flip the switch to get power from somewhere else because of the infrastructure problems.

In my individual case I have a backup generator so am not ever without power unless my 250 gallon propane tank gets empty, yes it's big enough to power the computers and everything else too but once it does come on I leave all but one or two of the computers off.


AFAIK, the UK's national grid doesn't require intervention. It's basically a huge grid of 330kV lines, which every power station feeds into, and every town takes from. The national grid workers monitor the usage, and command power stations to turn on and off to maintain the correct voltage, frequency, and current. We can also buy or sell to France and I think Norway.

One of the countries in Europe is 100% wind (Netherlands?), so I guess they do a lot of trading over the borders. Easier over there since they don't have to send it across the sea.

I have a UPS which powers my main computer, all the lights in the house, the internet router, the TV, and the stereo. I have never known an outage longer than 30 seconds here, so I haven't even added extra batteries to it. I would if I started getting longer cuts. And I'd get a UPS for things like the fridge and freezer. I only got this one to stop data corruption if the power goes off for a few seconds, plus the voltage here isn't very stable, so it adjusts that too - my lightbulbs last a lot longer.


The system in the US is a bit different in that yes it's automatic when an area goes dark that other areas supply any power needed to get it back up again asap but most power generation plants, coal, wind, water, nuclear etc are owned by the power companies themselves not by the State or Country. That means when an area goes dark and another plant increases it's own output to help them they get paid for it, they have pre-existing deals with lots of different power generating Companies so when they go dark the power can come back on without so much as a phone call saying HELP. When New York went dark a few years ago even California 3000 miles away, almost 5000 kilometers, the power Company there was sending power on it's way as soon as California noticed it, it was all computer controlled so no manual intervention needed. Even Canada upped their own output and supplied power to New York during that outage.

Now obviously storms etc that bring down transmission lines etc affect how soon the power comes back on to individual homes, which is why I have a generator but it's setup to keep me from sending my power back thru the grid when it's powering my house. That is a mandatory thing with the idea being when the power is off for the guys fixing the lines it can be deadly if the power is actually ON!!
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Message 69522 - Posted: 4 Feb 2020, 20:07:49 UTC - in response to Message 69521.  
Last modified: 4 Feb 2020, 20:11:03 UTC

The system in the US is a bit different in that yes it's automatic when an area goes dark that other areas supply any power needed to get it back up again asap but most power generation plants, coal, wind, water, nuclear etc are owned by the power companies themselves not by the State or Country. That means when an area goes dark and another plant increases it's own output to help them they get paid for it, they have pre-existing deals with lots of different power generating Companies so when they go dark the power can come back on without so much as a phone call saying HELP. When New York went dark a few years ago even California 3000 miles away, almost 5000 kilometers, the power Company there was sending power on it's way as soon as California noticed it, it was all computer controlled so no manual intervention needed. Even Canada upped their own output and supplied power to New York during that outage.


I think that's the same as ours in the UK. Power stations like yours are owned by many companies. There's some kind of agreement, the national grid buys whatever is cheapest or can be switched on when needed - eg wind only works when windy, solar only during the day, nuclear can't turn on and off rapidly, etc. There's even a few reversible hydro ones that will pump water back up to "store" electricity.

Now obviously storms etc that bring down transmission lines etc affect how soon the power comes back on to individual homes, which is why I have a generator


I think the UK doesn't get so bad storms as you do. I've lived here for 20 years and never had a power outage for more than a minute - I assume the main lines also have redundancy. 35 years ago when I was a child, we used to get outages all the time, but I lived in a more remote place, and the lines weren't so tough back then. We'd get excuses from the power company like "a bull in a field knocked a pole over".

but it's setup to keep me from sending my power back thru the grid when it's powering my house. That is a mandatory thing with the idea being when the power is off for the guys fixing the lines it can be deadly if the power is actually ON!!


I never thought of that. I used to have a home made solar system which kicked in automatically, although it was more to use it whenever there was plenty sunlight, I wired up a relay which would connect certain things in my house to either the inverter or the mains, but not both. I did that to prevent the inverter getting power in the wrong end!

A worker in the electric company should not assume that the line to my house won't be live - so many people have solar on their roof which is designed to feed back into the grid when the homeowner isn't using that much power, that there could always be power going back in. He can't just assume they will all shut off when there's no incoming power.

I did once at my work switch back on a breaker which I assumed had tripped. Actually a workman had turned it off to rewire something. His fault for not labelling it. He didn't know I had keys to that room :-) He was a bit annoyed when he got a big jolt - 3 phase hurts!
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Message 69523 - Posted: 5 Feb 2020, 0:00:03 UTC - in response to Message 69522.  

The system in the US is a bit different in that yes it's automatic when an area goes dark that other areas supply any power needed to get it back up again asap but most power generation plants, coal, wind, water, nuclear etc are owned by the power companies themselves not by the State or Country. That means when an area goes dark and another plant increases it's own output to help them they get paid for it, they have pre-existing deals with lots of different power generating Companies so when they go dark the power can come back on without so much as a phone call saying HELP. When New York went dark a few years ago even California 3000 miles away, almost 5000 kilometers, the power Company there was sending power on it's way as soon as California noticed it, it was all computer controlled so no manual intervention needed. Even Canada upped their own output and supplied power to New York during that outage.


I think that's the same as ours in the UK. Power stations like yours are owned by many companies. There's some kind of agreement, the national grid buys whatever is cheapest or can be switched on when needed - eg wind only works when windy, solar only during the day, nuclear can't turn on and off rapidly, etc. There's even a few reversible hydro ones that will pump water back up to "store" electricity.

Now obviously storms etc that bring down transmission lines etc affect how soon the power comes back on to individual homes, which is why I have a generator


I think the UK doesn't get so bad storms as you do. I've lived here for 20 years and never had a power outage for more than a minute - I assume the main lines also have redundancy. 35 years ago when I was a child, we used to get outages all the time, but I lived in a more remote place, and the lines weren't so tough back then. We'd get excuses from the power company like "a bull in a field knocked a pole over".

but it's setup to keep me from sending my power back thru the grid when it's powering my house. That is a mandatory thing with the idea being when the power is off for the guys fixing the lines it can be deadly if the power is actually ON!!


I never thought of that. I used to have a home made solar system which kicked in automatically, although it was more to use it whenever there was plenty sunlight, I wired up a relay which would connect certain things in my house to either the inverter or the mains, but not both. I did that to prevent the inverter getting power in the wrong end!

A worker in the electric company should not assume that the line to my house won't be live - so many people have solar on their roof which is designed to feed back into the grid when the homeowner isn't using that much power, that there could always be power going back in. He can't just assume they will all shut off when there's no incoming power.

I did once at my work switch back on a breaker which I assumed had tripped. Actually a workman had turned it off to rewire something. His fault for not labelling it. He didn't know I had keys to that room :-) He was a bit annoyed when he got a big jolt - 3 phase hurts!


Here in the US we have a National Electric Code(NEC) that is setup as the minimuum almost everywhere, that includes the 'transfer switch' that everyone with alternate power sources is SUPPOSED to have, but you are right ALOT of lineman only make the mistake once before ALWAYS assuming the line is hot! Some homeowners will plug their generators into the wall thinking that it's an easy way to power the fridge and freezer etc without even thinking that the power will flow out of the house too.My neighbor set his portable generator up with a 3 way switch, meaning the house either gets power from the main line or the generator but never both and the power can NOT go back into the main linefrom the generator. It's an okay way to do it but not approved byt the NEC unless a licensed electrician does it, he's not licensed now but used to be so knows how to do it right.

Some of our power companies use the water to provide power then pump it back up again to reuse it as well.

I'm on the East Coast of the US just North of Myrtle Beach, South Carolina so get some of the hurricanes and a pretty rare tornado or two here and there. While they were building my home 4 years ago a hurricane came thru and tore down a main transmission line and the power was out for 24 hours, last year another hurricane came thru and we lost power for 3 days. Neither time did my house get hit by anything but some wind and alot of rain, we are 32 feet above sea level and 1.5 miles from the beach. The height means we don't worry about storm surge and the distance means it only takes a few minutes to drive to the beach. We drive because it's across a causeway that has no walking or bike path and it's a long way down to the water!! We bought a golf cart so it's very cheap to drive and easy to find a place to park it.
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Message 69524 - Posted: 5 Feb 2020, 0:18:22 UTC - in response to Message 69523.  

Here in the US we have a National Electric Code(NEC) that is setup as the minimuum almost everywhere,


There's probably one in the UK, but 99% of people don't know or care what it is. The US seems rather obsessed by rules, I mean we don't even bother with that jaywalking rubbish.

that includes the 'transfer switch' that everyone with alternate power sources is SUPPOSED to have, but you are right ALOT of lineman only make the mistake once before ALWAYS assuming the line is hot!


I don't think there's many folk with alternate power sources here, since our power seldom goes off. Just solar power which ads to the grid while it's on, they have phase matching electronics, and maybe stop feeding into the grid when the grid fails, otherwise you could end up with a small number of panels trying to run a whole street.

Some homeowners will plug their generators into the wall thinking that it's an easy way to power the fridge and freezer etc without even thinking that the power will flow out of the house too.


I wouldn't care about that, I'd care about what happens when an out of phase AC comes back online form the grid and blows up the generator. I'd simply switch off the main fusebox, then plug it into the wall.

My neighbor set his portable generator up with a 3 way switch, meaning the house either gets power from the main line or the generator but never both and the power can NOT go back into the main linefrom the generator. It's an okay way to do it but not approved byt the NEC unless a licensed electrician does it, he's not licensed now but used to be so knows how to do it right.


How could that be against the rules? It's the only sensible way to do it that I can think of, apart from rather more complex phase matching.

Some of our power companies use the water to provide power then pump it back up again to reuse it as well.


I saw one when I was a kid - it's a tourist attraction. The Cruachan Dam in Scotland, or the "Hollow Mountain". You can go inside it where the generators are.

I'm on the East Coast of the US just North of Myrtle Beach, South Carolina so get some of the hurricanes and a pretty rare tornado or two here and there. While they were building my home 4 years ago a hurricane came thru and tore down a main transmission line and the power was out for 24 hours, last year another hurricane came thru and we lost power for 3 days. Neither time did my house get hit by anything but some wind and alot of rain, we are 32 feet above sea level and 1.5 miles from the beach. The height means we don't worry about storm surge and the distance means it only takes a few minutes to drive to the beach. We drive because it's across a causeway that has no walking or bike path and it's a long way down to the water!! We bought a golf cart so it's very cheap to drive and easy to find a place to park it.


I'd not want to live where there are many hurricanes.
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Message 69525 - Posted: 5 Feb 2020, 11:17:02 UTC - in response to Message 69524.  

Some homeowners will plug their generators into the wall thinking that it's an easy way to power the fridge and freezer etc without even thinking that the power will flow out of the house too.


I wouldn't care about that, I'd care about what happens when an out of phase AC comes back online form the grid and blows up the generator. I'd simply switch off the main fusebox, then plug it into the wall.


Most people have no clue about those things.

My neighbor set his portable generator up with a 3 way switch, meaning the house either gets power from the main line or the generator but never both and the power can NOT go back into the main linefrom the generator. It's an okay way to do it but not approved byt the NEC unless a licensed electrician does it, he's not licensed now but used to be so knows how to do it right.


How could that be against the rules? It's the only sensible way to do it that I can think of, apart from rather more complex phase matching.


Because he isn't currently licensed, it usually means that the insurance company won't pay for any damages that happen if you don't use a licensed person.

[quote][quote]I'm on the East Coast of the US just North of Myrtle Beach, South Carolina so get some of the hurricanes and a pretty rare tornado or two here and there. While they were building my home 4 years ago a hurricane came thru and tore down a main transmission line and the power was out for 24 hours, last year another hurricane came thru and we lost power for 3 days. Neither time did my house get hit by anything but some wind and alot of rain, we are 32 feet above sea level and 1.5 miles from the beach. The height means we don't worry about storm surge and the distance means it only takes a few minutes to drive to the beach. We drive because it's across a causeway that has no walking or bike path and it's a long way down to the water!! We bought a golf cart so it's very cheap to drive and easy to find a place to park it.


I'd not want to live where there are many hurricanes.


They are okay most don't hit us directly and our homes are rated for Category 3 storms, meaning about 150 mile per hour winds. Being a new neighborhood we don't have any full grown big trees so no branches etc to blow around and damage things and the roof shingles have lots of nails in them to keep them on the roof. So far they have been nothing but wind and rain storms and not very big ones at that although I'm sure at some point I will have to leave we are in a little inlet kind of area and the storms have to jog left to hit us. 2 years one hit land 40 miles North of us and all we got was a little bit of rain and some wind. Drainage collection ponds are mandatory around here so the water doesn't just go full force to the next place, it gives the water a place to settle out the stuff in it and calm down before making it's way back to the ocean. Ours only came up to about half full even after over 24 hours of almost an inch an hour of non stop raining. If it were to overflow it would flow away from my house as my bank is higher than the one across the pond from me, the banks slope up and out so it takes more and more water to fill them up as they get fuller.
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Message 69526 - Posted: 5 Feb 2020, 18:56:31 UTC - in response to Message 69525.  
Last modified: 5 Feb 2020, 18:57:43 UTC

They are okay most don't hit us directly and our homes are rated for Category 3 storms, meaning about 150 mile per hour winds. Being a new neighborhood we don't have any full grown big trees so no branches etc to blow around and damage things and the roof shingles have lots of nails in them to keep them on the roof. So far they have been nothing but wind and rain storms and not very big ones at that although I'm sure at some point I will have to leave we are in a little inlet kind of area and the storms have to jog left to hit us. 2 years one hit land 40 miles North of us and all we got was a little bit of rain and some wind. Drainage collection ponds are mandatory around here so the water doesn't just go full force to the next place, it gives the water a place to settle out the stuff in it and calm down before making it's way back to the ocean. Ours only came up to about half full even after over 24 hours of almost an inch an hour of non stop raining. If it were to overflow it would flow away from my house as my bank is higher than the one across the pond from me, the banks slope up and out so it takes more and more water to fill them up as they get fuller.


I have this image in my mind of a lot of American houses being built rather flimsily - wood facings etc. Might be in a different sort of weather area to yours, but Americans have told me they do it on purpose because they know they'll get blown down every so often and are cheaper to fix!

I've seen drainage ponds in new areas of housing here - some idiot in the council has approved the building of houses in a swamp area! Some of them had to be redone after a year when they sunk a bit! I've driven along the road through there and seen water gushing a few feet upwards out of the road drains!
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Message 69527 - Posted: 6 Feb 2020, 11:35:19 UTC - in response to Message 69526.  

They are okay most don't hit us directly and our homes are rated for Category 3 storms, meaning about 150 mile per hour winds. Being a new neighborhood we don't have any full grown big trees so no branches etc to blow around and damage things and the roof shingles have lots of nails in them to keep them on the roof. So far they have been nothing but wind and rain storms and not very big ones at that although I'm sure at some point I will have to leave we are in a little inlet kind of area and the storms have to jog left to hit us. 2 years one hit land 40 miles North of us and all we got was a little bit of rain and some wind. Drainage collection ponds are mandatory around here so the water doesn't just go full force to the next place, it gives the water a place to settle out the stuff in it and calm down before making it's way back to the ocean. Ours only came up to about half full even after over 24 hours of almost an inch an hour of non stop raining. If it were to overflow it would flow away from my house as my bank is higher than the one across the pond from me, the banks slope up and out so it takes more and more water to fill them up as they get fuller.


I have this image in my mind of a lot of American houses being built rather flimsily - wood facings etc. Might be in a different sort of weather area to yours, but Americans have told me they do it on purpose because they know they'll get blown down every so often and are cheaper to fix!


Most newer homes here in the US have aluminum or vinyl siding but my neighborhood has Hardy Board which is a form of concrete that comes in boards. Alot of older homes and those in older neighborhoods still have wooden clapboard siding which is also very durable but requires more maintenance. The million dollar homes all have brick or stone siding but it's just a facade not structural. They use alot of tie bars here because of the possibility of storms that are anchored into the poured concrete foundations and then up to the roof rafters so they don't blow away. It's part of the Category 3 storm requirements that they must be built too, as you said earlier lots of rules and regs about what you can and can't do.

I've seen drainage ponds in new areas of housing here - some idiot in the council has approved the building of houses in a swamp area! Some of them had to be redone after a year when they sunk a bit! I've driven along the road through there and seen water gushing a few feet upwards out of the road drains!


They are doing the same thing here with building homes on swamps!! They went thru for over 3 months and installed drains in the soil so they would all drain towards the main road and it's ditch and they also have a drainage pond behind them as well. The pond behind my house is just under 2 acres and is lower than the road drains so the water won't come out of the drains. The newer areas they are building don't have road drains they just have a cut in the curb that leads down a rocky path that the water follows to their ponds.
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Message 69530 - Posted: 6 Feb 2020, 22:35:41 UTC - in response to Message 69523.  

I did once at my work switch back on a breaker which I assumed had tripped. Actually a workman had turned it off to rewire something. His fault for not labelling it. He didn't know I had keys to that room :-) He was a bit annoyed when he got a big jolt - 3 phase hurts!

Shame on him! Lock out - Tag out was not followed. Could have been much worse than a jolt.
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Message 69531 - Posted: 6 Feb 2020, 22:58:34 UTC - in response to Message 69530.  

I did once at my work switch back on a breaker which I assumed had tripped. Actually a workman had turned it off to rewire something. His fault for not labelling it. He didn't know I had keys to that room :-) He was a bit annoyed when he got a big jolt - 3 phase hurts!

Shame on him! Lock out - Tag out was not followed. Could have been much worse than a jolt.


Nah, electricity rarely kills. Especially with the namby pamby circuit breakers they have nowadays. My house still has real fusewire. No nuisance trips!

He got his own back though, he mixed up the wiring colours (stupid new EU colours, black can be neutral or live in a building that's being changed over!) and managed to connect two phases to one room. Many blown capacitors in the computer power supplies, and an almighty stench. Of course I told the insurance company we needed new computers, followed by a quick search on Ebay for some replacement capacitors :-)
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