Welcome to MilkyWay@home

credit comparison to other projects


Advanced search

Message boards : Number crunching : credit comparison to other projects
Message board moderation

To post messages, you must log in.

Previous · 1 · 2 · 3 · 4 · 5 · 6 . . . 15 · Next

AuthorMessage
Profilepetros
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 3 Aug 08
Posts: 89
Credit: 255,801
RAC: 0
100 thousand credit badge10 year member badge
Message 7243 - Posted: 2 Dec 2008, 13:22:49 UTC
Last modified: 2 Dec 2008, 13:24:47 UTC

The better optimized SETI client uses the implemented SSE technology in Intel cpus,this sse tech offers more advantages to the software developers or to programmers who optimize apps.
ID: 7243 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Nicolas
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 19 Nov 07
Posts: 29
Credit: 303,629
RAC: 234
100 thousand credit badge10 year member badge
Message 7244 - Posted: 2 Dec 2008, 13:28:22 UTC - in response to Message 7243.  

The better optimized SETI client uses the implemented SSE technology in Intel cpus,this sse tech offers more advantages to the software developers or to programmers who optimize apps.

SSE is supported since AMD Athlon XP. SSE2 is supported since Opteron and Athlon 64. AMD introduced a subset of SSE3 in revision E (Venice and San Diego) of their Athlon 64 CPUs.
Please use "Reply" or "Quote" buttons on posts, instead of "reply to this thread". Keep the posts linked together ("X is a reply to Y").
ID: 7244 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profilecaspr
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 22 Mar 08
Posts: 90
Credit: 501,728
RAC: 0
500 thousand credit badge10 year member badge
Message 7245 - Posted: 2 Dec 2008, 14:24:06 UTC

OK, The first full day of crunching the new opp. app. I dropped from about 9k using milsop's app. to about 1.5k with the new app. Yep, I think a little adjustment is in order. I dont expect to make as much as with Milsop's app. but I'd like to see about half as much anyway.
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory



ID: 7245 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Brian Silvers

Send message
Joined: 21 Aug 08
Posts: 625
Credit: 558,425
RAC: 0
500 thousand credit badge10 year member badge
Message 7247 - Posted: 2 Dec 2008, 17:20:42 UTC - in response to Message 7210.  
Last modified: 2 Dec 2008, 17:28:29 UTC


BOINCStats has this for CPCS for that system at SETI:

Average credit per CPU second 0.020041

0.020041 * 3600 = 72.1476

My 72-76 was not bad for just eyeballing it... ;-)

Here:

Average credit per CPU second 0.028518

0.028518 * 3600 = 102.6648

Since it is so close to 108, my guess is that the average is going down from the artificial limit that the project enforced. It needs some more time to decay, then what should happen is the value for SETI will actually be higher...


Sure enough, the CPCS here is now:

Average credit per CPU second 0.017187, or 61.8732 cr/hr, which is very close to the observed 1 credit / minute.

So, despite the chart at BOINC Combined Statistics claiming that MW is paying at a rate of "2.5x SETI", for Labbie's Q9450 @ 3.36 GHz, SETI is actually the overall "better paying" project.

I do not presume to speak for Labbie, but if credits are reduced here, I can see where someone in a similar position would think that it's an unfair reduction, since more is already available at SETI.

The problem is in how SETI has chose to do their optimized applications, making them not the stock application. The stock application does include some optimizations, but not all optimizations. If you really want true "cross-project parity", then what needs to be done is the same degree of optimization in all stock applications then baseline credits against those roughly equivalent stock applications, then encourage all projects into open-sourcing their code to make fully optimized versions available and/or test fully optimized applications in the main project. This means that resources would need to be available from the project side to test the applications.

Since SETI is constantly saying that they don't have enough available resources (time or money) to handle that kind of true effort towards "cross-project parity", it is somewhat laughable that David Anderson feels that everyone should reference his project as the "baseline", and in particular that the "baseline" should be the stock application, which is kept artificially low due to the afore mentioned shortage of resources to do the right thing...

Bottom line:

People need to stop believing the numbers at BOINC Combined Statistics (and at other sites) mean anything other than some composite comparision against some unknown composite class of host. Unless the host lists are identical between projects, that composite value is different for each project. It doesn't mean squat when you start comparing real applications and all the possible variations of issues with the projects (processor penalties, OS penalties, old clients making requests for zero credit, etc, etc, etc...)

@ Travis and Dave - Run your project the way you see fit. Encourage the Cross-Project Parity crusaders to see the errors of their ways and to come up with a better plan.
ID: 7247 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
JAMC

Send message
Joined: 9 Sep 08
Posts: 96
Credit: 336,443,946
RAC: 0
300 million credit badge10 year member badge
Message 7248 - Posted: 2 Dec 2008, 18:03:41 UTC - in response to Message 7247.  

[quote]
@ Travis and Dave - Run your project the way you see fit. Encourage the Cross-Project Parity crusaders to see the errors of their ways and to come up with a better plan.



Hear-Hear...
ID: 7248 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profilecaspr
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 22 Mar 08
Posts: 90
Credit: 501,728
RAC: 0
500 thousand credit badge10 year member badge
Message 7250 - Posted: 2 Dec 2008, 18:36:03 UTC - in response to Message 7248.  

[quote]
@ Travis and Dave - Run your project the way you see fit. Encourage the Cross-Project Parity crusaders to see the errors of their ways and to come up with a better plan.



Hear-Hear...



I've heard this somewhere before!! ......DITTO?
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory



ID: 7250 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
ProfileTravis
Volunteer moderator
Project administrator
Project developer
Project tester
Project scientist

Send message
Joined: 30 Aug 07
Posts: 2046
Credit: 26,480
RAC: 0
10 thousand credit badge10 year member badge
Message 7254 - Posted: 2 Dec 2008, 19:37:41 UTC - in response to Message 7250.  

[quote]
@ Travis and Dave - Run your project the way you see fit. Encourage the Cross-Project Parity crusaders to see the errors of their ways and to come up with a better plan.



Hear-Hear...



I've heard this somewhere before!! ......DITTO?


Unfortunately, this doesn't seem like a very easy problem (or else someone would have come up with a good solution by now). So in light of that, we'd like to keep or credit in line with other projects. If it's too low we'll raise it, if it's too high we'll lower it.
ID: 7254 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Mr Mystery

Send message
Joined: 21 Nov 08
Posts: 90
Credit: 2,601
RAC: 0
1 credit badge10 year member badge
Message 7256 - Posted: 2 Dec 2008, 20:03:11 UTC - in response to Message 7254.  
Last modified: 2 Dec 2008, 20:04:33 UTC


@ Travis and Dave - Run your project the way you see fit. Encourage the Cross-Project Parity crusaders to see the errors of their ways and to come up with a better plan.



Hear-Hear...



I've heard this somewhere before!! ......DITTO?


Unfortunately, this doesn't seem like a very easy problem (or else someone would have come up with a good solution by now). So in light of that, we'd like to keep or credit in line with other projects. If it's too low we'll raise it, if it's too high we'll lower it.


Theres no single answer to any of this because it all depends and whatever seems fair to one group of users will cause screams of outrage from another.

As far as I can see best is to look at a list of projects and push a pin along the line somewhere.
ID: 7256 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profilespeedimic
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 22 Feb 08
Posts: 260
Credit: 57,387,048
RAC: 0
50 million credit badge10 year member badge
Message 7257 - Posted: 2 Dec 2008, 20:05:10 UTC - in response to Message 7254.  

[quote]
@ Travis and Dave - Run your project the way you see fit. Encourage the Cross-Project Parity crusaders to see the errors of their ways and to come up with a better plan.



Hear-Hear...



I've heard this somewhere before!! ......DITTO?


Unfortunately, this doesn't seem like a very easy problem (or else someone would have come up with a good solution by now). So in light of that, we'd like to keep or credit in line with other projects. If it's too low we'll raise it, if it's too high we'll lower it.


Thanks for making that clear. (again...)

I think it's better to at least try to keep some kind of parity than deliberately breaking it.
mic.


ID: 7257 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profilebanditwolf
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 12 Nov 07
Posts: 2425
Credit: 524,164
RAC: 0
500 thousand credit badge10 year member badge
Message 7261 - Posted: 2 Dec 2008, 20:13:49 UTC

I am getting an avg of 30/hour with the new wu's.
The old wu's & milksop's app I could get around 100/hour max.

This is on a P4 2.66.


I think the credits are avg or higher for older systems, but seems low on new fast ones (esp with the credit cap), which are becoming the majority (if they aren't already).

Doesn't expecting the unexpected make the unexpected the expected?
If it makes sense, DON'T do it.
ID: 7261 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
John Clark

Send message
Joined: 4 Oct 08
Posts: 1734
Credit: 64,228,409
RAC: 0
50 million credit badge10 year member badge
Message 7264 - Posted: 2 Dec 2008, 20:42:55 UTC
Last modified: 2 Dec 2008, 20:44:52 UTC

Just throwing in my thoughts based on looking at the non-purged results, time taken for the credit given and translating these back to MW credit per hour for each of my PCs

(a) Oldest PC - a dual P3 @933MHz under Win2K Pro.

Average time per CPU for the 39.84 CS WU is 13,400 seconds. So, the credit per hour per CPU = 39.84 CS in 13,400/3600 = 3.72 hours for 39.84 = 10.7 CS per hour per CPU.

(b) Next old PC - a dual Prestonia Xeon @2.8GHz under XP SP3 Pro (32 bit).

Average time for a 39.84 CS WU = 6,700 seconds. So, the credit per hour per CPU = 39.84 CS in 6,700/3600 = 1.86 hours for 39.84 = 21.4 CS per hour per CPU.

(c) Oldest Core 2 Quad - a QX6,700 @ 3.0GHz under XP SP3 Pro (32 bit).

Average time for a 39.84 CS WU = 3,170 seconds. So, the credit per hour per CPU = 39.84 CS in 3,170/3600 = 0.88 hours for 39.84 = 45.2 CS per hour per CPU.

(d) Newest Core 2 Quad - a QX9,650 @ 3.85GHz under XP SP3 Pro (32 bit).

Average time for a 39.84 CS WU = 2,020 seconds. So, the credit per hour per CPU = 39.84 CS in 2,020/3600 = 0.56 hours for 39.84 = 71.1 CS per hour per CPU.

So, the question which should be asked is what is the median point computer specification crunching MW? Whether this be AMD powered or Intel powered.

If the median spec computer can be identified and the credit given by the servers arranged to meet the average given by a range of projects - say 50 CS per hour per CPU - then that should be the fair credit level.

Obviously, as the MW stock client changes and PC are upgraded this credit given should be adjusted, because the average computer specification will move. But, this could be adjusted once in each 6 to 12 months time period.
ID: 7264 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profilebanditwolf
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 12 Nov 07
Posts: 2425
Credit: 524,164
RAC: 0
500 thousand credit badge10 year member badge
Message 7265 - Posted: 2 Dec 2008, 20:47:40 UTC - in response to Message 7264.  

Just throwing in my thoughts based on looking at the non-purged results, time taken for the credit given and translating these back to MW credit per hour for each of my PCs

(a) Oldest PC - a dual P3 @933MHz under Win2K Pro.

Average time per CPU for the 39.84 CS WU is 13,400 seconds. So, the credit per hour per CPU = 39.84 CS in 13,400/3600 = 3.72 hours for 39.84 = 10.7 CS per hour per CPU.

(b) Next old PC - a dual Prestonia Xeon @2.8GHz under XP SP3 Pro (32 bit).

Average time for a 39.84 CS WU = 6,700 seconds. So, the credit per hour per CPU = 39.84 CS in 6,700/3600 = 1.86 hours for 39.84 = 21.4 CS per hour per CPU.

(c) Oldest Core 2 Quad - a QX6,700 @ 3.0GHz under XP SP3 Pro (32 bit).

Average time for a 39.84 CS WU = 3,170 seconds. So, the credit per hour per CPU = 39.84 CS in 3,170/3600 = 0.88 hours for 39.84 = 45.2 CS per hour per CPU.

(d) Newest Core 2 Quad - a QX9,650 @ 3.85GHz under XP SP3 Pro (32 bit).

Average time for a 39.84 CS WU = 2,020 seconds. So, the credit per hour per CPU = 39.84 CS in 2,020/3600 = 0.56 hours for 39.84 = 71.1 CS per hour per CPU.

So, the question which should be asked is what is the median point computer specification crunching MW? Whether this be AMD powered or Intel powered.

If the median spec computer can be identified and the credit given by the servers arranged to meet the average given by a range of projects - say 50 CS per hour per CPU - then that should be the fair credit level.

Obviously, as the MW stock client changes and PC are upgraded this credit given should be adjusted, because the average computer specification will move. But, this could be adjusted once in each 6 to 12 months time period.


Nice range given.
Doesn't expecting the unexpected make the unexpected the expected?
If it makes sense, DON'T do it.
ID: 7265 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Brian Silvers

Send message
Joined: 21 Aug 08
Posts: 625
Credit: 558,425
RAC: 0
500 thousand credit badge10 year member badge
Message 7267 - Posted: 2 Dec 2008, 20:50:38 UTC - in response to Message 7254.  


Unfortunately, this doesn't seem like a very easy problem (or else someone would have come up with a good solution by now). So in light of that, we'd like to keep or credit in line with other projects. If it's too low we'll raise it, if it's too high we'll lower it.


Again, therein lies the rub. As I demonstrated, for Labbie's Q9450, SETI offers higher credit potential than here. However, if you look at speedimic's 2.8GHz Xeon and then drill down into the SETI and MW project stats for that specific system, you'll discover the following:

SETI - Average credit per CPU second 0.003885
MW@H - Average credit per CPU second 0.014103

So, from two different users, you have two completely different perspectives.

As you said, it isn't an "easy problem" to solve. The problem is getting project admins to understand that moving credits up and down isn't a real solution because it causes just as much "unfairness" as it purports to solve...
ID: 7267 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profilebanditwolf
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 12 Nov 07
Posts: 2425
Credit: 524,164
RAC: 0
500 thousand credit badge10 year member badge
Message 7268 - Posted: 2 Dec 2008, 20:53:32 UTC

Here is my new solution:


Give out candy instead. :P
Doesn't expecting the unexpected make the unexpected the expected?
If it makes sense, DON'T do it.
ID: 7268 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
John Clark

Send message
Joined: 4 Oct 08
Posts: 1734
Credit: 64,228,409
RAC: 0
50 million credit badge10 year member badge
Message 7269 - Posted: 2 Dec 2008, 21:01:13 UTC
Last modified: 2 Dec 2008, 21:02:29 UTC

Rather than the approach I just gave, 2 posts down. I see the only other way of ensuring a rough cross project parity is to -

(a) Record the total number of hosts crunching MW at a specific point in time and the total CS output of these hosts.

(b) Let the project run for a good time, say between 4 and 7 days.

(c) Record the number of hosts and the CS output of all of them at the end of the designated time period.

Note if the number of hosts have changed between the start and end of the time slot being measured, and use an arithmetic mean for approximation.

Note the difference between the finishing number of CS and that from the start. {b]This will give the total number of CS produced by the average number of hosts during that time[/b].

Now just divide the total number of CS recorded by the number of hosts and the number of hours run from the start to the end of the time period.

This will produce the average CS per hour per host (irrespective of the number of cores of CPUs). That average can then be compared with an equivalent average for other projects (if this is known).

This method averages the host differences, and gets around the point Brian made.
ID: 7269 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
ProfileGalaxyIce
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 6 Apr 08
Posts: 2018
Credit: 100,142,856
RAC: 0
100 million credit badge10 year member badge
Message 7272 - Posted: 2 Dec 2008, 21:09:45 UTC


Ummm, so that means.... errrr....

What so sort of candy are we talking about? ;P


ID: 7272 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Brian Silvers

Send message
Joined: 21 Aug 08
Posts: 625
Credit: 558,425
RAC: 0
500 thousand credit badge10 year member badge
Message 7273 - Posted: 2 Dec 2008, 21:11:32 UTC - in response to Message 7268.  

Here is my new solution:


Give out candy instead. :P


Trick or Treat?
ID: 7273 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
John Clark

Send message
Joined: 4 Oct 08
Posts: 1734
Credit: 64,228,409
RAC: 0
50 million credit badge10 year member badge
Message 7274 - Posted: 2 Dec 2008, 21:12:47 UTC

We've all been tricked in to lots and lots of posting.
ID: 7274 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Brian Silvers

Send message
Joined: 21 Aug 08
Posts: 625
Credit: 558,425
RAC: 0
500 thousand credit badge10 year member badge
Message 7275 - Posted: 2 Dec 2008, 21:13:50 UTC - in response to Message 7274.  

We've all been tricked in to lots and lots of posting.


Where's Misfit when you need him the most?
ID: 7275 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Mr Mystery

Send message
Joined: 21 Nov 08
Posts: 90
Credit: 2,601
RAC: 0
1 credit badge10 year member badge
Message 7277 - Posted: 2 Dec 2008, 21:17:32 UTC - in response to Message 7272.  


Ummm, so that means.... errrr....

What so sort of candy are we talking about? ;P


The sort that some people will say is delicious, some will say sucks rhino, some will say rots our teeth, some will say causes hyperactivity......
ID: 7277 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Previous · 1 · 2 · 3 · 4 · 5 · 6 . . . 15 · Next

Message boards : Number crunching : credit comparison to other projects

©2019 Astroinformatics Group