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Bigred
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Message 17373 - Posted: 2 Apr 2009, 20:39:00 UTC

Just to add my 2 euro cents to this, I think the stats and tables should stay together. Seti uses cpu's and gpu's with only one table. PS3/GPUGrid uses ps3's and Cuda enabled gpu's with only one table. There will be some whinners about how unfair the credit for gpu's is and some will leave. With the addition of a Cuda application I think you will see a large influx of users migrating from GPUGrid. I have 10 GTX260's parked there because the only other project for them has way too many issues. I think the bottom line is that like every other project, if you want to move up the standings, you have to be willing to spend the money to get the hardware to get you there.
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Message 17374 - Posted: 2 Apr 2009, 20:45:26 UTC
Last modified: 2 Apr 2009, 20:46:46 UTC

I agree with Renata et al.

This distributed computing lark whether it be BOINC or FAH or whatever has always been about either getting the science done.

Now you are either in the camp of not worrying about how fast the science is done, you are just happy to contribute or you are a get the science done as fast as possible type of person.

So lets say most of us here fall into the latter category, and the points system and inherent competitive spirit it creates encourages people to find faster ways to get the science done. That was either to get hold of lots of machines to do the work or to get more powerful machines to do the work. (or in some cases both!) :)

Since this stuff started we have been pushing the performance envelope chasing each other up the tables for more and more points and therefore in the process getting more and more science done faster and faster.

Every now and then we get so good at doing the science faster the scientific bods come up with a way to level the playing field and get us to crunch more data for the same sort of results.

What happens then is that the old slow machines of yesteryear become un-economical to run as crunchers. Who here crunches any sort of work units on an single core CPU? Or even on a AMD X2 or P4? Its just not worth the electricity for the results gained, and very often won't complete work within the time limit.

So where am I going with this? Well I think its a VERY bad idea to split the project from a statistics point of view. It goes against everything that has helped this crazy drive for scientific computing power get to where it is now and hopefully continue to drive it to greater heights in the future.

Sure separate the type of work so that GPU's get different sorts of work units than CPU's but don't split the stats or the project please.

Sorry for the rant. I've been at this game since Seti@Home first started (same handle look me up) only recently came over to Milkyway and liked the banter and that my 4850 actually could do some work I was interested in. Whatever you guys decide to do I wish you the best of luck but for now I'm putting the 4850 back to work on FAH till theres some more work to do here.
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Profile[AF>DoJ] supersonic

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Message 17375 - Posted: 2 Apr 2009, 20:59:25 UTC
Last modified: 2 Apr 2009, 21:01:59 UTC

furthermore, CPU's can be useful on projects that didn't implement GPU crunch yet

don't split stats !
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Profile[KWSN]John Galt 007
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Message 17377 - Posted: 2 Apr 2009, 21:21:39 UTC

Everyone must remeber, since BOINC doesn't 'oficially' support the ATI cards, splitting the project is the only way to do it. If the BOINC manager recogized the ATI cards, this whole point would be moot. If pressure is to be applied anywhere, it should be on the BOINC devs, to support the alternate GPU computing that is being done here.


Click to help Seti City.




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Profile[AF>DoJ] supersonic

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Message 17378 - Posted: 2 Apr 2009, 21:27:47 UTC


boinc 6.8 will detect ATIs
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MontagsMeeting

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Message 17380 - Posted: 2 Apr 2009, 21:37:04 UTC

It could be done by RAC. If RAC > 10,000 send big WU else small WU. this way it could be adjusted very sensitive to the needs of the project
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Brian Silvers

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Message 17381 - Posted: 2 Apr 2009, 21:40:43 UTC - in response to Message 17374.  
Last modified: 2 Apr 2009, 21:45:05 UTC

Who here crunches any sort of work units on an single core CPU? Or even on a AMD X2 or P4? Its just not worth the electricity for the results gained, and very often won't complete work within the time limit.


I have an AMD Athlon64 3700+ that completes tasks just fine. It takes 15-30 minutes, depending on which type of task that it is given. I've never turned a task in late, not on this project or on any of the other 4 projects I have participated in.

I dislike where this is going, from numerous people. All of you seem to be acting "snooty", like spoiled rich kids.

Let's get some things straight. Because you have a newer computer or a newer graphics card means that you either:

  • Happened to buy a computer at a later date than someone else.
  • Happen to have more money to use for such purchases.



What it does NOT mean is that you are "better than" someone that has a lesser computer, NOR does it mean that you are "entitled to more" than others. It simply means that you have benefited from advances in technology (buying later) or you have extra money that some of us do not have.

Personally, I was laid off in early 2007. It took me 15 months to just get an internship, then 3 months of the internship to have it turn into a full time job. I had only 1 day left before the health insurance would've put me under a pre-existing condition clause and wouldn't have covered certain things. I would love to have a new computer, but mine works as it is. The power savings are very minor compared to the interest expense required because I'd have to buy the computer on credit.

My 3700+ used to be one of the fastest out there. Your system will be a relic someday too. You too might fall on difficult financial times. Perhaps then you will be less self-absorbed with your quest for more points...


So where am I going with this? Well I think its a VERY bad idea to split the project from a statistics point of view. It goes against everything that has helped this crazy drive for scientific computing power get to where it is now and hopefully continue to drive it to greater heights in the future.


No, what it's really about is you don't like the idea of starting out at zero. It has nothing to do with "science" and everything to do with "bragging rights".
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Chris S
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Message 17382 - Posted: 2 Apr 2009, 21:43:56 UTC - in response to Message 17380.  

It could be done by RAC. If RAC > 10,000 send big WU else small WU. this way it could be adjusted very sensitive to the needs of the project


Sorry that won't work. Some people work for Universities and have hundreds of machines available. A test needs to be made for a CPU or GPU.
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ProfileNeal Chantrill
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Message 17385 - Posted: 2 Apr 2009, 21:51:43 UTC

Yeah thats right some people do work for unis but am I bothered and want to have our own league where people who work for unis can't be included, no. Everyone should be included in the same stat table. I earn less than 12k a year but don't drink or smoke and save my spare cash for my hobby. Makes me laugh to hear about snobby, GPU crunchers aren't asking for their own project!!!
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Message 17388 - Posted: 2 Apr 2009, 22:01:52 UTC - in response to Message 17382.  
Last modified: 2 Apr 2009, 22:02:11 UTC

Every host has its own RAC and only this has to be used. I don't know how high Milkyway CPU RAC can be but as my i7s do about 12000 on seti, it should be safe to say 20000 is a GPU. My two 4850 have more than 20000 even with the lack of WUs
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John Clark

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Message 17392 - Posted: 2 Apr 2009, 22:11:49 UTC - in response to Message 17388.  
Last modified: 2 Apr 2009, 22:22:15 UTC

Every host has its own RAC and only this has to be used. I don't know how high Milkyway CPU RAC can be but as my i7s do about 12000 on seti, it should be safe to say 20000 is a GPU. My two 4850 have more than 20000 even with the lack of WUs



This rig only crunches MW using CPUs, and it's current RAC can be seen here. It's RAC was climbing over 14K until the recent server crash, and I have a feeling it could exceed 15K, given time. It is no Core i7.
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ProfileLord Tedric
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Message 17393 - Posted: 2 Apr 2009, 22:17:12 UTC - in response to Message 17381.  

Who here crunches any sort of work units on an single core CPU? Or even on a AMD X2 or P4? Its just not worth the electricity for the results gained, and very often won't complete work within the time limit.


I have an AMD Athlon64 3700+ that completes tasks just fine. It takes 15-30 minutes, depending on which type of task that it is given. I've never turned a task in late, not on this project or on any of the other 4 projects I have participated in.

I dislike where this is going, from numerous people. All of you seem to be acting "snooty", like spoiled rich kids.

Let's get some things straight. Because you have a newer computer or a newer graphics card means that you either:

  • Happened to buy a computer at a later date than someone else.
  • Happen to have more money to use for such purchases.



What it does NOT mean is that you are "better than" someone that has a lesser computer, NOR does it mean that you are "entitled to more" than others. It simply means that you have benefited from advances in technology (buying later) or you have extra money that some of us do not have.

Personally, I was laid off in early 2007. It took me 15 months to just get an internship, then 3 months of the internship to have it turn into a full time job. I had only 1 day left before the health insurance would've put me under a pre-existing condition clause and wouldn't have covered certain things. I would love to have a new computer, but mine works as it is. The power savings are very minor compared to the interest expense required because I'd have to buy the computer on credit.

My 3700+ used to be one of the fastest out there. Your system will be a relic someday too. You too might fall on difficult financial times. Perhaps then you will be less self-absorbed with your quest for more points...


So where am I going with this? Well I think its a VERY bad idea to split the project from a statistics point of view. It goes against everything that has helped this crazy drive for scientific computing power get to where it is now and hopefully continue to drive it to greater heights in the future.


No, what it's really about is you don't like the idea of starting out at zero. It has nothing to do with "science" and everything to do with "bragging rights".


Couldn't agree more..................

No, what it's really about is you don't like the idea of starting out at zero. It has nothing to do with "science" and everything to do with "bragging rights".


More likely that no advancement against either CPU or GPU would be gained in seperate tables, the advantage would be lost!
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Message 17396 - Posted: 2 Apr 2009, 22:42:49 UTC
Last modified: 2 Apr 2009, 22:45:07 UTC

Another way would be to check CPU-times. This would be a 100% solution because it hasn't necessary to be a GPU to crunch big WUs, fast CPUs could do them too.

and at last users could decide for their own if their CPUs/GPUs should do which sort of WU. works quite well on seti


Seems a lot of people are very concerned about what other people do, why they do and judge them.
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Message 17402 - Posted: 2 Apr 2009, 23:35:23 UTC - in response to Message 17377.  

Just give the GPU's a diferent version number in th app-info file to the CPU's
then issue work by version number.
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Message 17404 - Posted: 3 Apr 2009, 1:07:31 UTC - in response to Message 17381.  

I have an AMD Athlon64 3700+ that completes tasks just fine. It takes 15-30 minutes, depending on which type of task that it is given. I've never turned a task in late, not on this project or on any of the other 4 projects I have participated in.


Great so you fall into the first group I described who do it to contribute to the science. And every WU crunched is appreciated by every project contributed in. Thats your perogative. Personally I try and maximise the amount of science I can do, and yes the points that it generates where I can.


I dislike where this is going, from numerous people. All of you seem to be acting "snooty", like spoiled rich kids.


Sorry you feel like that, I honestly did not intend to give that impression.


Let's get some things straight. Because you have a newer computer or a newer graphics card means that you either:

  • Happened to buy a computer at a later date than someone else.
  • Happen to have more money to use for such purchases.




You are 100% correct.


What it does NOT mean is that you are "better than" someone that has a lesser computer,


Again, hit the nail on the head :)


NOR does it mean that you are "entitled to more" than others. It simply means that you have benefited from advances in technology (buying later) or you have extra money that some of us do not have.


Its not about being more entitled, its about doing more work, I get the same credit per work unit that you do, I just do more work so get more credit. Thats not something I feel I should be ashamed of. Neither should you.


Personally, I was laid off in early 2007....


Sounds like a nightmare! I was also made redundant twice in twelve months in 2006, its not fun and those months without income can be scary especially when you are the only breadwinner and have two kids, wife, house mortgage as your responsibility. Not sure what point your trying to make here.

I too ran on lower end PC's in the early days, in fact I mentioned in my earlier post that many of us probably all started with PC's that became uneconomical to run or just couldn't hack it anymore. So we moved on. I've always been a computer geek, its my hobby and my job, so I sell parts to minimise the cost of new kit and at the same time am always looking for ways to economise (electricity is damn expensive over here!) GPU's are actually a good way to economise for people like me who crunch for more complex reasons than you give us credit for. Its part science, part competition, part fun, part community, part.. something indefinable.


No, what it's really about is you don't like the idea of starting out at zero. It has nothing to do with "science" and everything to do with "bragging rights".


Woah.. Heh, ok again I'm sorry you feel the need to take it personally, I've been doing this distributed computing stuff since 1999, if I was only doing it for bragging rights I'd have given up along time ago. We started at zero a few times with a few projects along the way.

Good luck with that 3700+ knowing my luck you'll be the guy who gets the 100K WU/day gfx card just as I get my next tax bill :)
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Message 17406 - Posted: 3 Apr 2009, 1:24:02 UTC - in response to Message 17343.  

I'd suggest the GPU project spit out normal (but longer, more complex) WUs that would run on CPUs, and it's up to us to use the correct GPU specific app.


I agree on that


Thanks :) It would be easier for everyone involved IMO.

With respect to the past few posts, I'm a lowly PhD student on a monthly stipend that barely covers the basics! In the end I've sold a few things to pay for my 4850s - stuff around my house I haven't used in years, or bored with.

Since this stuff started we have been pushing the performance envelope chasing each other up the tables for more and more points and therefore in the process getting more and more science done faster and faster.

Every now and then we get so good at doing the science faster the scientific bods come up with a way to level the playing field and get us to crunch more data for the same sort of results.

What happens then is that the old slow machines of yesteryear become un-economical to run as crunchers. Who here crunches any sort of work units on an single core CPU? Or even on a AMD X2 or P4? Its just not worth the electricity for the results gained, and very often won't complete work within the time limit.

So where am I going with this? Well I think its a VERY bad idea to split the project from a statistics point of view. It goes against everything that has helped this crazy drive for scientific computing power get to where it is now and hopefully continue to drive it to greater heights in the future.


I'm right behind you. I remember when 100 cobblestones used to be what an 800Mhz processor did in a day, when I was running 11+ machines from 133Mhz to 550Mhz. In those two years I got total 800k credit. In the past four days, due to hardware and software advances, I've got 100k. In another few years, I might get 1M in the same time frame. What's the constant here? An adapted version of Moore's Law!
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Brian Silvers

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Message 17409 - Posted: 3 Apr 2009, 3:32:04 UTC - in response to Message 17404.  
Last modified: 3 Apr 2009, 3:41:18 UTC



I dislike where this is going, from numerous people. All of you seem to be acting "snooty", like spoiled rich kids.


Sorry you feel like that, I honestly did not intend to give that impression.


After reading the nearly constant complaints of some about how they spent so much for now "useless" merchandise all because the project is short on work at the moment, your post came across as "who in the world would bother with those ancient machines anymore" and seemed to hint at another thing I've seen thrown about here by another GPU user, banning CPUs from the project and going to GPU only. That may be something that Travis and Dave might do, given the nature of task generation here (each new task is based upon the results of prior tasks), but for now they (at least one of them) have stated that they think GPUs can do things for their project that would take far too long on CPUs.

As for those people who are complaining about how much money they spent, well, nobody from the project said, "If you go out and buy this, we'll promise you an endless supply of high credit work to do with it." People are acting like Dave and Travis are at fault for coaxing them into spending money. Wrong. People need to take responsibility for their own actions...



What it does NOT mean is that you are "better than" someone that has a lesser computer,


Again, hit the nail on the head :)



NOR does it mean that you are "entitled to more" than others. It simply means that you have benefited from advances in technology (buying later) or you have extra money that some of us do not have.


Its not about being more entitled, its about doing more work, I get the same credit per work unit that you do, I just do more work so get more credit. Thats not something I feel I should be ashamed of. Neither should you.


Take some time and go read some posts from the more vocal GPU users out there. The message comes across that because they have better toys and they spent their money to get them, they deserve better treatment in the form of work always being available...even if it means others might not have work. A similar thing happened over at SETI with an individual (and a few coy supporters) who posted "pay to play" propositions over there several times, with the idea being that nobody that was worth their salt would not donate money to the project and if you didn't donate money, then you shouldn't be able to participate...

Oh, and unless I find another revenue stream (i.e. a roomate, girlfriend, win the lottery, etc...), I don't see myself getting a new system unless this one breaks, then I'll spend the least that I can, so a high powered video card wouldn't be in that type of system...
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Message 17410 - Posted: 3 Apr 2009, 4:07:52 UTC

Mind you, at this point in time, I just want wu's to keep both my GPU and CPU busy with MW work. Currently I not getting either very consistently!

I really don't care how this is worked out in the end as I will have CPU only machines crunching and one CPU/GPU machine crunching this project.

It would be nice to keep a single set of stats tables though.
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Message 17411 - Posted: 3 Apr 2009, 4:20:35 UTC - in response to Message 17409.  

Oh, and unless I find another revenue stream (girlfriend), I don't see myself getting a new system unless this one breaks.


Count the girlfriend out. You'll be spending ever spare dime on her. And oh, if it gets more serious than that, forget it then too cause there'll be things like kids, car payments, morgage payments, food, bills. <smile>



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Message 17412 - Posted: 3 Apr 2009, 4:25:22 UTC - in response to Message 17411.  

Oh, and unless I find another revenue stream (girlfriend), I don't see myself getting a new system unless this one breaks.


Count the girlfriend out. You'll be spending ever spare dime on her. And oh, if it gets more serious than that, forget it then too cause there'll be things like kids, car payments, morgage payments, food, bills. <smile>



I forgot to mention that my plan was she was going to be rich...
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