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Posts by SargeD@SETI.USA

1) Message boards : Number crunching : Credit limits apparently exist ... (Message 5900)
Posted 4 Nov 2008 by Profile SargeD@SETI.USA
Post:
Well, I don't pay too much attention to credits normally - I join projects for the science, but I do enjoy a good fat bunch of cobblestones when I get it. But this seems strange enough for me to want to give my opionion about it.
To make it clear, I am very much for giving out fair credit between projects. We had the same "problem" over at Einstein about a year ago, that we were getting too much credit (though probably less than what Milky Way was giving crunchers until the fix). Even then I was in favor of lowering credits to get closer to what SETI was giving and my opionion has not changed. Let credits be something that can be compared, and try to give all projects a fair chance of attracting volunteers.
Still, I'm not happy with the current situation. Give us less credits per WU, so we get the same as crunchers at SETI or Einstein - fine with me. But this "cap" is, in my eyes, a bad idea to say the very least. To me that is punishing people with fast boxes, and let's face it - those are the ones that get most work done for science. With the credit scheme we have now, my cute little Core Duo laptop would probably make the same amount of credit as my brand-new quadcore desktop - although it only has rougly 1/4 the power. Hell, I could attach my old Acer with the Celeron CPU and would probably get way more credit, compared to faster crunchers, than the speed of that box suggests. What's next? If we are still getting too much credit, would you lower the cap so far that the faster boxes reach it in the time it takes to go for the first cup of coffee in the morning after switching on the computer? I might be exaggerating but you get my point: People who only go after credits would consider much of their work "wasted" (and probably decrease res share, which would be bad for science) and even for those crunchers who, like me, see the credits as merely a nice little extra, it is kinda demotivating. And there are faster comps out there than mine, much as I hate to admit it ;-) take Xeons alone.
That said, I want to make clear that I have no intention of leaving this project any time soon and I want to express my solidarity to the project staff, who seem to have done a very good job so far. My comment on crediting is meant as constructive criticism and I hope it comes across as such.

Greetings,
Annika

If the science is worth while, then the project will have very little problem getting crunchers anyway. The kredit kops are always saying that those of us who crunch for competition are in the minority, so why is there so much concern for credit parity? If we are the minority, then it should not matter to the projects if we credit shop because the majority of crunchers are doing it for the science and care less about the credits. This whole parity thing still does not make sense to me. Let each project set their own credit level as they want it and let the "minority" shop for credits if they want to.
2) Message boards : Number crunching : And if we DONT run a "FASTER" App.? (Message 5899)
Posted 4 Nov 2008 by Profile SargeD@SETI.USA
Post:
The optimized app is freely available. It's not fair to the general boinc community if the optimized app is so much faster that those users will get so much credit. If you feel this strongly, why not just get the optimized app?

So you are going to penalize those who elect not to use the optimized app? That makes absolutely no sense. This place is definitely on my avoid list now!!
3) Message boards : Number crunching : Credit limits apparently exist ... (Message 5875)
Posted 3 Nov 2008 by Profile SargeD@SETI.USA
Post:
SETI has lost and continues to lose crunchers due to their constant reduction of credits. Other projects are starting to feel the sting as they are pushed into lowering theirs as well by the "powers that be". It is the intra project comparisons that are suffering the most from this. Even those of us who are in it for the competition continue to crunch many projects regardless through "team projects of the month" and or races and other competitions. We just prefer to give the lions share to those projects that reward us the most.

Many people like to compare the credit situation to the economics of work, so here is my comparison:
I think pay in all jobs should be equal. Since the US government has set a standard with the "minimum wage" then all employers should lower their wages to the federal minimum wage.

Now how well would that go over??
4) Message boards : Number crunching : Credit limits apparently exist ... (Message 5832)
Posted 3 Nov 2008 by Profile SargeD@SETI.USA
Post:
Well, DA has ruined another project with his constant search for the elusive parity. I could live with it if he put as much pressure on the projects giving less than SETI as he does those purportedly giving more. Then and only then do you have true parity, but as always that never happens. Well, my farm is leaving Milkyway for good.
5) Message boards : Number crunching : WU Credits (Message 5022)
Posted 23 Aug 2008 by Profile SargeD@SETI.USA
Post:
Thanks to whoever changed the front page news item... That was very responsible of you...

Finally, someone shows some common sense. Thanks!
6) Message boards : Number crunching : WU Credits (Message 4996)
Posted 22 Aug 2008 by Profile SargeD@SETI.USA
Post:


Guess I'm blind cause I still don't see you saying that in that thread or anything else in the thread that would pertain to this matter really ....

Well, I am not blind. You publicly called Crunch3r a cheater without having all of the facts, and I have yet to see a retraction from you. I am also quite disappointed that the administration of this project has left that unfounded accusation for all to see.

Quote from your post:
You can call what he is doing whatever you like, Bending the Rules, Ahead of the Curve & even admire him for his Intelligence but in the end it is nothing more than Outright Blatant Cheating & in the same Lofty Class as the Notoriously Ugly Wate Incident of some time ago.


I think the thread should be hidden or deleted, or at the very least your post should be.
7) Message boards : Number crunching : WU Credits (Message 4868)
Posted 20 Aug 2008 by Profile SargeD@SETI.USA
Post:
I really have a hard time understanding why any project would want to penalize people who improve an application to the point that it can do more science in a shorter amount of time. Looks like this will be another project I will have to stay away from once the team project of the month is completed. That is unless the entire team decides to boycott it (which is highly possible). :(
8) Message boards : Number crunching : Increased WU Credit (Message 2830)
Posted 25 Mar 2008 by Profile SargeD@SETI.USA
Post:

Just wanted to make a point, that there are even people willing to help without credits above average (there are also a few projects I would support without any credits) - contrary to the people who posted "Byebye" right after the granted credits had been decreased. Thats poor.

No that is not poor. That is free choice. You have the right to support whatever project you want according to your own wishes and desires. We have that right as well. If I do not like the way a project is being run I have the right to say bye and move my crunchers to another project. They are, after all, my crunchers. I prefer to have a dialog with the project admins first, but that is by my choice. Those who posted bye and left were also exercising their right to do so. I do not think any less of them for doing so and are appalled that you do.
9) Message boards : Number crunching : Increased WU Credit (Message 2800)
Posted 25 Mar 2008 by Profile SargeD@SETI.USA
Post:
Thanks for listening guys! Much better response here than I ever got at SETI. And it is really appreciated.
10) Message boards : Number crunching : updated granted credit (Message 2783)
Posted 24 Mar 2008 by Profile SargeD@SETI.USA
Post:

Go into the BOINCstat statistics for the users with most credits and see how many of the top users are university-based for Einstein.


There are only 5 Universities in the Top 50 listing. One of these is no longer crunching anything, so that leaves 4. Not as many as you lead us to believe. That means 46 of the top 50 are either individuals or groups that are crunching for one team or another. Kinda shoots that theory down.
11) Message boards : Number crunching : updated granted credit (Message 2775)
Posted 24 Mar 2008 by Profile SargeD@SETI.USA
Post:
Back on topic here. I think 4.5 is fair and after looking at the poll thread, it would appear that the majority are saying 4.25 to 4.5.
12) Message boards : Number crunching : updated granted credit (Message 2773)
Posted 24 Mar 2008 by Profile SargeD@SETI.USA
Post:
... There are many more who crunch for the credits than those who do it only for the science and they are usually the ones who have the large farms....

I think this is very debatable and incorrect.

The overwhelming majority do not care for credits. The overwhelming majority, 300,000+ users, never read any of the fora, never post. That they may monitor credits with their BOINC Manager is then something done as an intellectual exercise or as game/race amongst themselves not as is discussed-without-end by the same credit-hungry that tend to post the same whines in all the fora of all the projects.

The largest, so-termed server-farms, mostly seem to be Einstein project-based and most certainly do not do calculations for credit as they only do Einstein calculations. As for others... they may do many calculations, they may have a significant percentage of the work calculated, but they are in the extreme minority when viewed as a percentage of users.

If they leave... so what? There will still be 300,000+ users doing calculations with more than 300,000 computers connected. Perhaps some projects will see a slow-down in calculations but the work will still be completed.


You can think that if you want. How many of those who hook up and forget it run more than 1 computer? Not very many I would think. And then they are not there for the science. They are there because they thought it would be cool. Count the numbers who say they do it for the science and compare that to the numbers who do it for the credits and you are outnumbered. The robots who hook up and then forget it are not in it for the science or the credits so they do not count. I am a small farmer, but my farm consists of 30 cores crunching 24/7. I have fellow team members who run into the 100s of computers. One has control of over 800 computers. By sheer numbers of people they probably do outnumber us, but as far as crunching power, no way do they beat us credit mongers. Just ask some of the people at SETI about the boycott that took place there in 2006. But you keep thinking it your way if that makes you feel good. As I said, they give credits for a reason and that reason is the people who are in it for the competition. When the credits get too low and the competitors leave, then the project suffers.
13) Message boards : Number crunching : updated granted credit (Message 2762)
Posted 24 Mar 2008 by Profile SargeD@SETI.USA
Post:

That's right. But I don't want to discuss to death ;-)
I only find curious (stupid?) that for the same amount of work you get x from one project, y from another and z from another.
It's as curious as you have three guys doing the same job in the same company. The first like white shirts and he gets $50,000 pert year, the second $60,000 because of its blue shirts and the third $70,000 because of its green shirts.
Not very constructive. And I would prefer see people interested in a project because of the subject instead of intereted by the local higher credits.

Be careful throwing around the word stupid! I and my team mates could get very offended by that reference.
What does it matter why someone crunches a project. You do it for the science (or so you say) and I do it for the credits. We both accomplish the same thing and the science gets done. If it were not for the credits, just how much science do you think would get done? There are many more who crunch for the credits than those who do it only for the science and they are usually the ones who have the large farms. If this were not true then there would be no need for credits. I would be willing to bet that if all projects quit giving credits they would very quickly die from lack of participation. SO credits are much more important than you think.
14) Message boards : Number crunching : updated granted credit (Message 2756)
Posted 24 Mar 2008 by Profile SargeD@SETI.USA
Post:
I think 4.5 would be a fair number and still be competitive against other projects. Anything less than that would probably still reduce your "volunteer" base more than you would like to see. Project parity is a pipe dream of David Anderson anyway and a way for him to control all BOINC projects, never mind that a large part of the data he was using was flawed and proven to be so. I really believe that he is using it to try to get back the large part of SETIs volunteer base that have moved on because of the problems there. I really do not want to move on to regular DC projects, but if things keep going the way they are with a credit reduction every time one of us improves the application, that is most likely where I will end up. At least then I would not have to put up with David Anderson's anecdotal behavior. Or maybe we should just make the improvements and use them for ourselves instead of releasing them to the public in general.


Ok, it's not only for credits. If you look your teams's stats, your four preferred projects are Seti, ABC, QMC and Milkyway. By chance they are those who give the more credits. Lucky.
Don't answer. Thanks

You need to look again. We hold number 1 in several projects that you failed to mention. As a matter of fact, we tend to spread ourselves around quite a bit, especially since Formula BOINC started. And how can you say that SETI gives more credits? That is a laugh for sure.
15) Message boards : Number crunching : Poll: How much credit do you think is fair? (Message 2754)
Posted 24 Mar 2008 by Profile SargeD@SETI.USA
Post:
4.5
16) Message boards : Number crunching : updated granted credit (Message 2729)
Posted 24 Mar 2008 by Profile SargeD@SETI.USA
Post:
Oh yes, we have to. Its not like everyone had the same computer....


Fast or slow computers, the ratio remains the same.

Well, let's get real project parity then. Outlaw all computers except the P4 630. Then everybody will always get the same credit for every WU. Oh yeah, we need to outlaw over clocking as well since that is an optimization (like the optimized applications)and would give some people an unfair advantage and have an adverse impact on cross-project parity.

Sheeesh!!
17) Message boards : Number crunching : updated granted credit (Message 2728)
Posted 24 Mar 2008 by Profile SargeD@SETI.USA
Post:
I think 4.5 would be a fair number and still be competitive against other projects. Anything less than that would probably still reduce your "volunteer" base more than you would like to see. Project parity is a pipe dream of David Anderson anyway and a way for him to control all BOINC projects, never mind that a large part of the data he was using was flawed and proven to be so. I really believe that he is using it to try to get back the large part of SETIs volunteer base that have moved on because of the problems there. I really do not want to move on to regular DC projects, but if things keep going the way they are with a credit reduction every time one of us improves the application, that is most likely where I will end up. At least then I would not have to put up with David Anderson's anecdotal behavior. Or maybe we should just make the improvements and use them for ourselves instead of releasing them to the public in general.
18) Message boards : Number crunching : updated granted credit (Message 2623)
Posted 24 Mar 2008 by Profile SargeD@SETI.USA
Post:
Not many complained about getting shorted credit before the optimizations. So why gripe now when the credit is rougly the same as it was then. The wu's were cut down to 1/3 and the credit 1/3(approx.).

Many of us (myself included) were not crunching here before the optimizations. We were attracted here because of the good credits. Contrary to what everybody preaches, many people are in this for the competition and helping the science. Those two are NOT mutually exclusive. If I were only doing it for the science I would crunch with my two main machines and not spend money on my farm (not to mention my electricity costs). But I am in it for the competition and bragging rights as well so I run a farm of 25 machines. Since I spend the money for the competition, I will spend most of my crunching time where I can get the most bang for my buck. And right now that is not here any more.
19) Message boards : Number crunching : updated granted credit (Message 2585)
Posted 23 Mar 2008 by Profile SargeD@SETI.USA
Post:
i just hope that you don't based lowering credits on the stats of http://boinc.netsoft-online.com/e107_plugins/boinc/get_cpcs.php cuz that data is flawed wich has already been proven to be fact.

However i agree that credit was to low ... errr.. hmmm ... ok a bit to high.
Was fun while it lasted :P







welp time to move again :(

Yep, I already moved. Project parity is a "David Anderson Dream" that takes all of the competitive fun out of crunching in some projects. That is like telling a store owner he has to set his prices the same as his competitor across the street. I still wonder why everyone thinks SETI has to be the standard. They cannot even keep their project running right most of the time.
20) Message boards : Cafe MilkyWay : Team Recruitment thread - CLOSED (Message 2142)
Posted 10 Mar 2008 by Profile SargeD@SETI.USA
Post:
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