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Message boards : Number crunching : No further Support for Milkyway at this time!

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Profile aendgraend
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Message 6139 - Posted: 14 Nov 2008, 15:36:33 UTC

Hi,

we discussed this long and intensely at the SETI.Germany Board and with Members of other Teams as well, and we came to the Point that the Milkyway@home Project doesn't deserve to be supported any longer.

Our Team recommends it's Members to stop Crunching MW immediately until the faulty Credit System is corrected AND the optimised Apps are "officially" used by the Project.

Why?

The Development ot the optimised Application is highly appreciated - it gets the Projects Work done a lot faster than before.

But on the other Side it influences the BOINC Credit System in a disastrouos matter! It is absolutely disproportional in regards to other Projects.

The Project Leaders are well informed about this Issue I assume but so far nothing has changed.


I wish all here a good and pleasant Weekend.

Best Regards

aendgraend
SETI.Germany

Profile XaaK
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Message 6140 - Posted: 14 Nov 2008, 15:48:35 UTC - in response to Message 6139.

Cool! More wus for me :)

Profile michael-u5a1
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Message 6141 - Posted: 14 Nov 2008, 16:31:14 UTC
Last modified: 14 Nov 2008, 17:06:03 UTC

MilkyWay without "SPEGs", this are good news for all MilkyWay cruncher. We run no more out of work.

Bye, bye, SETI.Germany!
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Profile Carnal
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Message 6142 - Posted: 14 Nov 2008, 16:57:22 UTC

It's not only SPEG, you are losing also 2nd Wave and all our crunchers.

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Message 6143 - Posted: 14 Nov 2008, 17:06:33 UTC
Last modified: 14 Nov 2008, 17:06:46 UTC

I've been away from this fake project after crunching for a few days again with the good app, the one the project refuses to use.

As long as there is no correlation between the real amount of work done and the freely spread credits without any connection to work this one should be put off the stats sites, as it's not compatible to real projects.
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JAMC
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Message 6144 - Posted: 14 Nov 2008, 17:22:20 UTC - in response to Message 6140.

Cool! More wus for me :)

... and me! :)

Profile Ewald
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Message 6145 - Posted: 14 Nov 2008, 17:25:03 UTC

Bye,Bye MilkyWay

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Ewald
SETI.Germany

Profile DoctorNow
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Message 6146 - Posted: 14 Nov 2008, 17:26:22 UTC - in response to Message 6143.

As long as there is no correlation between the real amount of work done and the freely spread credits without any connection to work this one should be put off the stats sites, as it's not compatible to real projects.

What a nonsence... Are we on FreeHAL here or what?
Can you think about anything else than on credits?
As far as I see the situation the credits are given for the good app Milksop has done, and this was a big difference.
for the current situation, as long there is no new app out, it's pretty fair when you use his app to get better credits.
Okay, they are a bit high, I admit, too, but in my eyes it's only fair.
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Macroman1
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Message 6147 - Posted: 14 Nov 2008, 17:40:47 UTC - in response to Message 6139.

Hi,

we discussed this long and intensely at the SETI.Germany Board and with Members of other Teams as well, and we came to the Point that the Milkyway@home Project doesn't deserve to be supported any longer.

Our Team recommends it's Members to stop Crunching MW immediately until the faulty Credit System is corrected AND the optimised Apps are "officially" used by the Project.

Why?

The Development ot the optimised Application is highly appreciated - it gets the Projects Work done a lot faster than before.

But on the other Side it influences the BOINC Credit System in a disastrouos matter! It is absolutely disproportional in regards to other Projects.

The Project Leaders are well informed about this Issue I assume but so far nothing has changed.


I wish all here a good and pleasant Weekend.

Best Regards

aendgraend
SETI.Germany


Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord done split ya

Profile Saenger
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Message 6148 - Posted: 14 Nov 2008, 17:51:57 UTC - in response to Message 6146.

As long as there is no correlation between the real amount of work done and the freely spread credits without any connection to work this one should be put off the stats sites, as it's not compatible to real projects.

What a nonsence... Are we on FreeHAL here or what?

Yes, it's comparable.
Since month the project knows about the problems, since many weeks the project knows about the solution, but they still refuse to act.

It's either total disregard or malicious, both disqualifies the admins absolutely.
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Profile Sarge
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Message 6149 - Posted: 14 Nov 2008, 18:03:38 UTC - in response to Message 6139.

Disastrous? So, credit disproportionality (I think I made up a word) is now on par with, say, global warming? Call the UN! Call NATO! Get this fixed.
Oh, and the bit about the project leaders being well-informed but not doing anything about it? Did you NOT read the recent headlines on the project's main page?
Have a pleasant weekend. ;)

Profile Sarge
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Message 6150 - Posted: 14 Nov 2008, 18:06:48 UTC - in response to Message 6148.

Malicious? Come on, Saenger. You and I both know what real malice is and we've discussed it. It is ridiculous to call differences in awarding credit a matter of malice.
Disregard? Maybe. Maybe people don't think Dr. Anderson is always right. Whoa. What a concept.
If Dr. Anderson doesn't like it, boot a project, then.
Watch somebody build a better BOINC in response, except it won't be BOINC anymore.

Profile Dave Przybylo
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Message 6151 - Posted: 14 Nov 2008, 18:25:07 UTC - in response to Message 6150.

I think you could've sent this as a private message to the admins and not posted it on the forum since it doesn't involve anyone except your group. That being said I'm sorry to see you leaving. However, from what I can gather, you are displeased that there is a better application out there and dislike that the credit level is more than average. I think those are both positive things and can not justify your reasoning. Please elaborate on it so I can better understand.
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Dave Przybylo
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Department of Computer Science
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute

Profile Sarge
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Message 6152 - Posted: 14 Nov 2008, 18:34:08 UTC - in response to Message 6151.

Dave, there are those that believe that all BOINC projects should toe the line and award credit in the same way.

(There are also those that believe that life here began out there and that there are still brothers (and sisters) of man (and woman) are fighting, somewhere, out there, to survive. But, that hasn't been proven yet, so, it's still just a belief, like the other.)

Profile DoctorNow
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Message 6153 - Posted: 14 Nov 2008, 18:44:06 UTC - in response to Message 6151.

However, from what I can gather, you are displeased that there is a better application out there and dislike that the credit level is more than average. I think those are both positive things and can not justify your reasoning.

Yep, I can only underline that.
To compare MilkyWay with FreeHAL, like Saenger did, is ridiculous.
Here the credits are given out on the application performance, on FreeHAL it was a mess because of a bad validator, as far as I know.
Heck, I did run that project too, but got no big credits like I heard from other people, only problems... That is not comparable.
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Message 6155 - Posted: 14 Nov 2008, 18:55:22 UTC - in response to Message 6151.

I think you could've sent this as a private message to the admins and not posted it on the forum since it doesn't involve anyone except your group...

Ah, but then they could not 'grand-stand'. No doubt this will also lead to many threads, across many of the fora, and will lead users to put ban (or something more outrageous) MilkyWay banners in their signatures just as they did with projects like Protein Predictor @ Home.

There is nothing to understand. If you do not run your project as you dictate then they will:

1. not support it,
2. berate it in other project fora and at team sites
3. likely start harassing everyone in these fora

To see tactics of this ilk, read through Protein Predictor threads and see how they announce they no longer support, but like a divorcee/divorcée, can't let go and constantly come back to harass everyone else who disagrees with their viewpoint.

-ChinookFöhn

Profile Mete
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Message 6156 - Posted: 14 Nov 2008, 19:07:15 UTC - in response to Message 6152.

Whoa! To say that the credit level is "more than average" is the understatement of the year, I guess. To explain this: My Machines made 450K Cr. in more than one year, but they made almost 50k Cr. in less than 2 Weeks!

The point is, that it may be fair for the crunchers that are using the modified app. but it is really unfair for all other projects on the BOINC platform. If you decide to join BOINC to get your science work done (of course, that's what BOINC is for), you should respect the other projects there and the rules of the platform. But if you are giving 10 times more credits than every other project does, the credit-addicted crunchers stop any other project to get the most credit possible for their CPU-time (what is understandable, seen from their position).

In the End, your science work gets done, but the other projects don't get anything. Is this fair?

Just my 2 cents.

ChinookFoehn
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Message 6157 - Posted: 14 Nov 2008, 19:42:04 UTC - in response to Message 6156.

... But if you are giving 10 times more credits than every other project does, the credit-addicted crunchers stop any other project to get the most credit possible for their CPU-time (what is understandable, seen from their position).

In the End, your science work gets done, but the other projects don't get anything. Is this fair?...


Again, as I stated once before, only about 1% of active users do calculations for Milky Way. No project is losing calculations to MilkyWay - no matter what your perception is.

Of course it is fair! About 99% of active users do not do any calculations for MilkyWay and could care less about the credit issue here or at any of the other 'high-credit awards' projects where even fewer users do calculations for.

Who care what SETI thinks as they still get about half of the more than 300,000 active users. They shall never get everyone no matter how they attempt to force their views on every project as well as continuing to drive users away from BOINC. Besides there are more important things to research than looking for the proverbial little-green-alien.

-ChinookFöhn

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Message 6158 - Posted: 14 Nov 2008, 19:42:07 UTC

I'm OK with making the MW app the standard app just so long as SETI and Einstein do the same. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Oh, that's right. SETI doesn't complain when projects award too little credit because that means more people will continue looking for little green men. I digress...

Types of crunchers:
1. Science lovers
2. Credit lovers
3. Credit lovers who like doing science as well (so long as the credit is good)

If you are in group 1, stop complaining since more science is getting done with the opt app. If you are in group 2, there is plenty of credit. If you are in group 3, like me, you are doing more science and getting good credit. The best of both worlds.

Since that doesn't appear to cover everyone, I can only guess there must also be a group 4 which believes that projects must make everything equal. If that's the case, please take it to the next level. Don't stop with credits. Send me your money. I wouldn't want you to have more money than me just because you work harder, are smarter, take on more responsibility, work longer hours, have more experience, etc. No? How about giving everyone who crunches the same credit regardless of how many computers they have or how fast they are? That kind of defeats the purpose of having a team and competing and having stats pages doesn't it?

Oh well. Leave if you like. I'll just have to fund a way to add more machines on MW so that I can make up for the science you won't be doing (and reap the benefits of the credits as well).

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Message 6159 - Posted: 14 Nov 2008, 19:55:19 UTC - in response to Message 6140.

Cool! More wus for me :)


:P, it should take some load off the servers then.

Shouldn't Seti do the same then, they have 'official-unofficial' faster apps that give more credit.
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