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Profilebanditwolf
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Message 30537 - Posted: 12 Sep 2009, 3:02:59 UTC

Looks like I'll be the start.

WHY lower the credit?? This project is using the credit specified by DA himself (which was also lowered at that time). He forces other projects to lower theirs and works around constantly to get them all lowered again. If he doesn't like it now than he should have given a lower number at that time.

Lowering it ~30% will certainly run users off again.
Doesn't expecting the unexpected make the unexpected the expected?
If it makes sense, DON'T do it.
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Message 30554 - Posted: 12 Sep 2009, 4:50:08 UTC - in response to Message 30537.  

Looks like I'll be the start.

WHY lower the credit?? This project is using the credit specified by DA himself (which was also lowered at that time). He forces other projects to lower theirs and works around constantly to get them all lowered again. If he doesn't like it now than he should have given a lower number at that time.

Lowering it ~30% will certainly run users off again.

I'm guessing that once a cruncher hits a hundred thousand million billion credits they won't notice the difference.
me@rescam.org
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Message 30559 - Posted: 12 Sep 2009, 5:33:07 UTC - in response to Message 30554.  

I'm guessing that once a cruncher hits a hundred thousand million billion credits they won't notice the difference.


So in other words ther's no point in lowring the credit ;)
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Message 30561 - Posted: 12 Sep 2009, 6:32:30 UTC

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Message 30564 - Posted: 12 Sep 2009, 8:22:41 UTC
Last modified: 12 Sep 2009, 8:23:43 UTC

The only worth goal for doing anything with credits is to make RAC true performance-related parameter. Then it can be used for host performance tuning.
For all other - cobblestones still unconvertable in $$ ;)

Currently there is paradoxal situation aroud credits formed.
The more weak in optimization sense stock app is, the more big boost opt app will give.
Then for opt app no "fair credit issue rate among other projects" rule applies at all, all participants try to use opt app instead stock one (it's very right choice BTW ;) ) but this lead to situation when project in whole overpay credits very much.

Considering projects competition for participants it beneficial for project to have very weak stock app and good opt app - this will attract credit hunters a lot.

From other side, porting back to stock optimizations from opt app is totally unpleasable move considering project credits (although it's very profitable for project science).
Optimisation of stock app itself will lead to change in credit issue rate by project ("fair credit issue rate among other projects" applies here).
While stock users may not notice any RAC change, RAC of opt app users will drop (!). I'm sure opt app users who cares about credits will not be pleased by that.

That is, current credit system is evil but its nature.
It not stimulates progress of stock app but contradict to it.
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Seejay
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Message 30565 - Posted: 12 Sep 2009, 9:42:15 UTC

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ProfileGlenn Rogers
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Message 30567 - Posted: 12 Sep 2009, 9:56:26 UTC

How a wu taking over 8000 secs gets less credit than a wu taking 7500 secs is beyond me...Why is it that the project devs always bow to pressure from D.A. and Seti?? Tell them to get stuffed and leave the project alone. Or do the people running this show have no backbone??

I will be crunching my cache then thats it see ya... Bloody pathetic...
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Message 30569 - Posted: 12 Sep 2009, 10:23:45 UTC - in response to Message 30564.  

The only worth goal for doing anything with credits is to make RAC true performance-related parameter. Then it can be used for host performance tuning.
For all other - cobblestones still unconvertable in $$ ;)

Currently there is paradoxal situation aroud credits formed.
The more weak in optimization sense stock app is, the more big boost opt app will give.
Then for opt app no "fair credit issue rate among other projects" rule applies at all, all participants try to use opt app instead stock one (it's very right choice BTW ;) ) but this lead to situation when project in whole overpay credits very much.

Considering projects competition for participants it beneficial for project to have very weak stock app and good opt app - this will attract credit hunters a lot.

From other side, porting back to stock optimizations from opt app is totally unpleasable move considering project credits (although it's very profitable for project science).
Optimisation of stock app itself will lead to change in credit issue rate by project ("fair credit issue rate among other projects" applies here).
While stock users may not notice any RAC change, RAC of opt app users will drop (!). I'm sure opt app users who cares about credits will not be pleased by that.

That is, current credit system is evil but its nature.
It not stimulates progress of stock app but contradict to it.

Actually, here at MW the credits are directly connected to the performance of the application. As the number of floating point operations needed to process a WU is known, MW uses a very simple system, for every TeraFlop (1000 GFlop) you calculate you get 5.4 credits (before it was 7.5). One can break down the SETI (GPUGrid too) credits to the same simple formula and SETI grants about 2.7 credits per TFlop, but it is using mainly single precision. As CPUs have only half the throughput for double precision (GPUs only a fifth to a 12th) compared to single precision the doubling of this multiplicator appears fair, even if it may be an advantage for a unoptimized stock application (who is using that at MW?).

To sum it up, if improvements are ported to the stock app, the credits for the stock app will rise, all other ones are unaffected.

PS:
If I would be nitpicking, I could say that the flops count the credits base on were determind with the 0.19 apps. The upcoming 0.20 version is able to get away with slightly less operations to arrive at the same result. So if they are out, we may see another (but smaller) reduction if the project adapts to this (flops count is determined server side, the output in the stderr.txt is just for informative purpose).
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Message 30570 - Posted: 12 Sep 2009, 11:34:36 UTC

... or you can think of credits like politicians do with our money - '$1 Trillion, $2 Trillion, pretty soon now you'll be talking real money.'
Cheers,

PeterV

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Message 30572 - Posted: 12 Sep 2009, 12:06:15 UTC - in response to Message 30570.  

... or you can think of credits like politicians do with our money - '$1 Trillion, $2 Trillion, pretty soon now you'll be talking real money.'


Does that mean I can print my credits up and devalue yours? :D
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Message 30573 - Posted: 12 Sep 2009, 12:18:35 UTC - in response to Message 30569.  
Last modified: 12 Sep 2009, 12:34:16 UTC

To sum it up, if improvements are ported to the stock app, the credits for the stock app will rise, all other ones are unaffected.


Same FLOP approach used by SETI AFAIK.
Considering project alone, yes, if stock app will better, it will do same predefined FLOPS faster, i.e. spending less operations amount when initially defined.

Then if one will start new project, it should produce initial completely unoptimized app, count FLOPS for it, set credit rate per FLOP more or less on level other projects "pay" then issue another, much faster app :)

I hope you see my point - credit rate can be used to attract participants.

So, to have at least some sense, inter-project credit justification will take place. That's I called "fair credit issue rate among other projects" rule.
Aplying this rule project will be forced (at least if it wnat to play nicely with other projects) change its credit issue rate per predefined FLOPS.
Then as I already said, stock users will (if this justification carried correctly) have no RAC change, RAC of opt app users will drop.
[EDIT: I describe situation when stock app improves. Currently app stays the same, credit changed - this applies both to stock and opt apps of course]

I have no idea will MW follow this rule or not. I just say it exists and already be applied to SETI.
SETI crunchers know about "credit lowering" scripts Eric installed.
That is, SETI decrease its own "payment" ratio to play nicely with other projects cause now it has better optimized stock app then was at moment of credit per FLOPS define.

From this point of view prev post in this thread about SETI forcing MW to lower credits just nonsense. SETI forced do the same already!
Not sure it had any positive effect BTW, cause as any credit-related issue it produced so many negative posts on SETI forums and some credit-related participants even leaved project....
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ProfileCrunch3r
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Message 30574 - Posted: 12 Sep 2009, 13:16:53 UTC - in response to Message 30573.  

To sum it up, if improvements are ported to the stock app, the credits for the stock app will rise,


That only applies for a short time since the credits will be adjusted downwards to 'compensate' the new faster stock code.


all other ones are unaffected.


No. All other will be affected as well since the credits will be lowered.

Even worse if that's the case on S@H which will not only lower the credits for the stock and the optimized apps, it does have a negative effect on other projects as well, since those "need" to be in line with YETI@Home, they need to lower their credits, even though apps on those projects didn't get any code improvement at all..



Join Support science! Joinc Team BOINC United now!
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Message 30575 - Posted: 12 Sep 2009, 13:44:09 UTC

I find it hard to believe that some new code is about to be tested
and the only thing people are talking about is credit. I thought I
was donating computer time expecting something in return take away
from the meaning of donating. I will say credit is nice but that
should not be the main reason for donating you time. I think improving
the performance means more than credit.

How about, Thanks Cluster Physik for all your hard work.
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STE\/E

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Message 30576 - Posted: 12 Sep 2009, 14:00:31 UTC

Lowering it ~30% will certainly run users off again


It may but there's going to be no mass exodus of Participants. Right now Milkyway has no Competition for the ATI Boys other than Collatz Project which at the moment doesn't compare to Milkyway as far as Credits for the ATI Cards goes.

That may change though soon and if the ATI Credits at Collatz are comparable to Milkyway then you might see a bigger jump of Participants to the Collatze Project since they may pay about the same.
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Thamir Ghaslan

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Message 30577 - Posted: 12 Sep 2009, 14:48:40 UTC - in response to Message 30576.  

Lowering it ~30% will certainly run users off again


It may but there's going to be no mass exodus of Participants. Right now Milkyway has no Competition for the ATI Boys other than Collatz Project which at the moment doesn't compare to Milkyway as far as Credits for the ATI Cards goes.

That may change though soon and if the ATI Credits at Collatz are comparable to Milkyway then you might see a bigger jump of Participants to the Collatze Project since they may pay about the same.


distriubted.net has an ATI app, don't mind running it once in a while and not sure when yoyo@home will hatch on to the ATI app or how much credit it will grant by converting keys to credits!

If memory serves me right, 30,000,000 keys / second on a quad core, 500,000,000 on a gtx 280, and 1,200,000,000 keys on a 4870x2!
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Message 30578 - Posted: 12 Sep 2009, 15:05:26 UTC

distriubted.net has an ATI app


If it isn't BOINC then I don't run it :)
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Message 30635 - Posted: 13 Sep 2009, 3:58:41 UTC

Speaking of credit...

Raistmer
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Misfit
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So like I said who with millions of credit will notice if the credit is reduced? That's just an extra days worth of crunching out of the year. Of course only the ATI peeps will see huge amounts of credit in just a very short period of time. I think only we non-ATI crunchers will notice the difference.
me@rescam.org
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ProfileDan T. Morris
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Message 30638 - Posted: 13 Sep 2009, 4:09:39 UTC

The following is what I posted on seti@home.. I hope they like it...




Message 932967 - Posted 13 Sep 2009 4:00:18 UTC


Last modified: 13 Sep 2009 4:01:50 UTC

Ok now that the politics has landed on the Milky way project to make them bring their project more in line with projects like SETI. Where is the ATI application on SETI so that I can get a copy to use? I mean come on I want to use it to compare with Milky Way project.

Maybe I am mistaken and maybe SETI does not have one for this project. If not why would you bully other projects to conform to something that you don't have here. Just think about that one..

Heck you can't even keep this project running for more that two days.

SM..
____________
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Message 30639 - Posted: 13 Sep 2009, 4:20:29 UTC

But at seti every day is tuesday. :)
Search astrafamily for explanation.
Cheers,

PeterV

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ProfileArion
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Message 30643 - Posted: 13 Sep 2009, 6:48:43 UTC - in response to Message 30635.  

Speaking of credit...

Raistmer
Joined: Jun 27 09
Credit: 4,157,608
RAC: 45,743

Misfit
Joined: Aug 27 07
Credit: 494,751
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So like I said who with millions of credit will notice if the credit is reduced? That's just an extra days worth of crunching out of the year. Of course only the ATI peeps will see huge amounts of credit in just a very short period of time. I think only we non-ATI crunchers will notice the difference.


Arion
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Total all Boinc Projects: 3,694,656.59
Processing with Boinc since: August 6, 1999

Ten years and I haven't even hit the 4 mil mark yet. Needless to say I quit worrying about credits about 2 weeks after I started all those years ago.

I have to admit that 1/2 of my total credits have come from MW in the past year. I don't have anything to lose with credit being dropped. <smile>


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