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Profile Travis
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Message 59658 - Posted: 25 Aug 2013, 10:46:11 UTC
Last modified: 25 Aug 2013, 10:50:52 UTC

I just recently implemented a badging scheme over at wildlife@home http://volunteer.cs.und.edu/wildlife and it would pretty easy to do the same here. So Id like to make a request for potential badges, and their credit limits (or other reason for getting those badge).

I'll be going any user responses and if we can come to a consensus of badges we like, i'll implement them, So please post some badges for us. Once we have a consensus about which ones we like I can get them up in a short time.

Also, if you like the more 'bootrsappy' layout of Wlidlife@home, I could make the milkyway@home pages look similar with a nav bar on top, etc. Let me know what you think.
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Message 59661 - Posted: 25 Aug 2013, 13:11:28 UTC

Don't have anywhere near the artistic skills to make the differently-coloured images, but I feel that this could be a good base:



I'd recommend 10k/50k/100k/250k/500k/1M/2.5M/5M/10M/25M/50M/100M etcetera as badge levels. No 25k, because having the second-level badge at 25k when it's quite easily achieved is a bit silly, and theoretically speaking the sequence should start at 25k, but in my experience it's good to set the first target in a rewards system like this to be lower than what would actually be in sequence, as it gets people into the project a lot easier, as they feel like they can get something to show for their work quickly.

Admittedly I haven't actually returned any work units on a remotely modern computer for this project (I think all of my work here was done on an Intel Celeron D), so I'm not sure exactly how easy 10k is. Booted it up on my i7-3517U to get a bit of a reference, and will adjust my proposed levels accordingly when I see what kind of output it gets.

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Message 59663 - Posted: 25 Aug 2013, 15:41:20 UTC - in response to Message 59661.

Don't have anywhere near the artistic skills to make the differently-coloured images, but I feel that this could be a good base:



I'd recommend 10k/50k/100k/250k/500k/1M/2.5M/5M/10M/25M/50M/100M etcetera as badge levels. No 25k, because having the second-level badge at 25k when it's quite easily achieved is a bit silly, and theoretically speaking the sequence should start at 25k, but in my experience it's good to set the first target in a rewards system like this to be lower than what would actually be in sequence, as it gets people into the project a lot easier, as they feel like they can get something to show for their work quickly.

Admittedly I haven't actually returned any work units on a remotely modern computer for this project (I think all of my work here was done on an Intel Celeron D), so I'm not sure exactly how easy 10k is. Booted it up on my i7-3517U to get a bit of a reference, and will adjust my proposed levels accordingly when I see what kind of output it gets.


10k is very easy to get on a modern GPU, way back when I was using a HD5850, I was averaging about 160k RAC.
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Message 59664 - Posted: 25 Aug 2013, 16:31:21 UTC

Badges ..... here we go :)

Two classic traps:

1. Set Badge levels for todays crunch level - rapidly falls apart as Moores Law kicks in and doubles output each 18 months. eg top three hundred already have more than 100million ........ system falls apart as being too easy, and gets ignored.

2. Too many badge levels resulting from over-enthusiasm to give a tangible sign to lower level Crunchers. That becomes silly, as they get handed out with the fish & chips and the Hot-Dogs .... a bit pointless, particularly as the Crunchers actual Credit level is hardly a "secret".

"Hear no Evil, See no Evil, Speak no Evil" principle is no way to run a Badge system. The system has to be Tangible, mean something, and be something that is actually worth striving for pretty silly if it was easy to get //

Other Projects have recently wrestled with this, and most that didn't fall over at the Start Gate kept the Qualifying Totals High with a large spread between Badges, and kept the number of Badges Down - especially the latter as it quickly reaches 10-15 badges which is silly.

The way around round the Classic Traps is a dual Badge - One for the Total AllTime Credit level, and one for current average credit. The AllTime AllUp total needs to be HIGH, so the scheme lasts a few years not just a few months. As a starter for ten .... the following eight badge level awards illustrate the principle:

AllUpTotal: 1m, 100m, 500m, 1Bn, 5Bn, 10Bn, 50Bn, 100Bn
[As Credit inflation and Crunch Power increases that's easy to amend later ... later adding 500Bn, 1Tn would keep it going for a Decade or more ...)

RAC: Crucial to give lower powered crunchers something to shoot for as well as something for New Starters, this badge reflects CURRENT RAC level, not their all-time highest RAC - it plays to the ego :) ......
5K, 25K, 100K, 500K, 1m, 3m, 5m, 10m

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Message 59667 - Posted: 25 Aug 2013, 17:52:17 UTC - in response to Message 59664.


10k is very easy to get on a modern GPU, way back when I was using a HD5850, I was averaging about 160k RAC.


Ah, okay then, in that case 100k should be the absolute bare minimum for a first-up badge.


2. Too many badge levels resulting from over-enthusiasm to give a tangible sign to lower level Crunchers. That becomes silly, as they get handed out with the fish & chips and the Hot-Dogs .... a bit pointless, particularly as the Crunchers actual Credit level is hardly a "secret".


Every BOINC project that implements badges gets a massive spike in production straight afterwards. For projects where the first badge is harder to achieve, this spike, perhaps counter-intuitively, falls quicker, and by a larger amount.

You may think it's pointless, but badges that are actually achievable for users who can't afford to go out and buy top-of-the-range dedicated hardware are a huge factor.

one for current average credit


There's a reason that no project (as far as I know) has a badge system based on RAC. It doesn't reward dedication, you can lose your badges through no fault of your own, they disappear when the project ends or is having server issues, and the figure is just in flux so much that there's no real easy way to tell if you're going to get a badge or not.


AllUpTotal: 1m, 100m, 500m, 1Bn, 5Bn, 10Bn, 50Bn, 100Bn
[As Credit inflation and Crunch Power increases that's easy to amend later ... later adding 500Bn, 1Tn would keep it going for a Decade or more ...)


Going from 1 million to 100 million is ridiculous, and will result in 99.95% of crunchers just stopping at 1 million and swapping to a project where the badges are actually in logical steps. Only 0.16% of users with credit would get the second badge with that system, which is ludicrous. If you don't have a dedicated GPU, 1 million would be nearly impossible, let alone 100.

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Message 59671 - Posted: 25 Aug 2013, 18:40:52 UTC

You may think it's pointless, but badges that are actually achievable for users who can't afford to go out and buy top-of-the-range dedicated hardware are a huge factor.


Pointless .... not in the slightest..... If you read carefully the two suggested schemes cater for both the "well endowed" cruncher and a casual Cruncher.

As to a million+ .... if a Cruncher with dedicated graphics cards wants to play that game, there are many Projects "paying" far higher at the lower equipped cruncher. 2Million+ is not hard to "get" with a modern graphics card on many projects, even without 24 hr crunching. A three year old 7970 would achieve 2Million plus without changing heartbeat - that's the same as 500 to 1,000 casual crunchers with minimal hardware - that's reality.

Its a fools paradise to try and compare one Project "rates" with another as a Bellweather norm - if that was the norm, the stampede out of Milkyway would have occurred a long time ago.

The Challenge is to craft a scheme that acknowledges everyones efforts. Ignore that and try to play down high end hardware, is as silly as trying to claim low end hardware is the solution to all ills.

There is a clear balance to be struck, and its not an easy one as such. Hit way too low and it becomes meaningless, hit it too high and it becomes "elitist". The realities of Modern Hardware make that a difficult balance to strike - but the balance must be achieved - pitch too high and it flops, pitch too low - as many do - and its a pointless exercise.

That's the real world - like it or not.

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Message 59677 - Posted: 26 Aug 2013, 2:13:31 UTC - in response to Message 59671.

If you read carefully the two suggested schemes cater for both the "well endowed" cruncher and a casual Cruncher.


Yes, but the scheme that you proposed for the casual cruncher is inherently flawed.

A three year old 7970 would achieve 2Million plus without changing heartbeat - that's the same as 500 to 1,000 casual crunchers with minimal hardware - that's reality.


The 7970 still costs over $400. If you think that that's a mid-range card that most people would have you're kidding yourself.

Its a fools paradise to try and compare one Project "rates" with another as a Bellweather norm - if that was the norm, the stampede out of Milkyway would have occurred a long time ago.


Which is why I compared percentage of users who had achieved the levels as opposed to what those levels are.


The Challenge is to craft a scheme that acknowledges everyones efforts. Ignore that and try to play down high end hardware, is as silly as trying to claim low end hardware is the solution to all ills.


That's not a challenge. All you need to do is have badges that are easy to get, and badges that are hard to get. And not 100x difficulty jumps.

There is a clear balance to be struck, and its not an easy one as such. Hit way too low and it becomes meaningless, hit it too high and it becomes "elitist". The realities of Modern Hardware make that a difficult balance to strike - but the balance must be achieved - pitch too high and it flops, pitch too low - as many do - and its a pointless exercise.


Or you could just, you know, use the range of badges to cover both areas? Start low, end high. It's really not that difficult.

(Also, your proposal of the second badge being at 100 million points would, as I said, only be achieved by 0.16% of all users. Your third badge would only be achieved by 0.012%. And you think that that's not elitist?)

That's the real world - like it or not.[/quote]

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Message 59678 - Posted: 26 Aug 2013, 4:06:38 UTC
Last modified: 26 Aug 2013, 4:07:03 UTC

i could care less whether or not a badge system is implemented...just don't change the look of the website. it follows the format of most other BOINC project websites that everyone knows well IMO...
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Message 59679 - Posted: 26 Aug 2013, 4:18:54 UTC - in response to Message 59678.
Last modified: 26 Aug 2013, 4:19:42 UTC

i could care less whether or not a badge system is implemented...




just don't change the look of the website. it follows the format of most other BOINC project websites that everyone knows well IMO...


I believe that the potential redesign Travis is suggesting is moremostly just a visual upgrade, not actually any layout change. If you have a look at the Wildlife@Home website, everything is in the same place, just prettier. One of my favourite features of the Wildlife@Home site is the navbar, as it allows someone to jump from the forums to their account to the top credit leaderboards in a single click, which is really very helpful.

(Also, I accidentally made a quoting error in the last line of my previous post, that line isn't meant to be there, my bad)

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Message 59686 - Posted: 26 Aug 2013, 21:02:24 UTC

Travis, I think SubsetSum is most in need of tender loving care since there has been no progress/work available from 29 June.

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Message 59687 - Posted: 26 Aug 2013, 22:17:36 UTC
Last modified: 26 Aug 2013, 22:19:51 UTC

@Sellyme: Regarding the "The Caring Continuum"... You are my hero. I've saved that PNG and am going to use it with reckless abandon! :-) <My apologies for the drift off-topic...you may now resume your regularly scheduled forum discussion>
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Message 59688 - Posted: 27 Aug 2013, 2:55:07 UTC

I'm a badge hog so I'm fine with badges but please don't change the site look Travis.
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Message 59708 - Posted: 28 Aug 2013, 1:58:08 UTC - in response to Message 59688.
Last modified: 28 Aug 2013, 2:00:56 UTC

I'm with Blurf and others here in support of badges. I, too, am a badge seeker (as my signature will attest) :)

I also feel that the current site navigation scheme is "well known" and doesn't really need an update. The Wildlife@home scheme is interesting, at least.

Just as an additional bit of input, there are other projects that have badges based on the different applications run, providing a spectrum of badges for a project. That could be done here, also.
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Message 59733 - Posted: 29 Aug 2013, 13:39:28 UTC

Badges ? very nice... :)
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Message 59756 - Posted: 30 Aug 2013, 0:57:44 UTC

Travis please respond ...

I think SubsetSum is most in need of tender loving care since there has been no progress/work available from 29 June.

To clarify:-
There are 1,229 contributors to SubsetSum.
There has been nothing from you about that project since the date above, now 2 months ago, despite many polite requests from various participants.

I'm posting a message on that project forum quoting your following message and http://milkyway.cs.rpi.edu/milkyway/show_user.php?userid=159 link as I'm sure there are many people on that forum who would like to know your priorities.

For example
I just recently implemented a badging scheme over at wildlife@home http://volunteer.cs.und.edu/wildlife and it would pretty easy to do the same here.

Put another way ... if the SubsetSum project is dead just Retire it and we can all go happily dancing off into the sunset. :-)

Ray

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Message 59761 - Posted: 30 Aug 2013, 10:38:07 UTC - in response to Message 59756.

Put another way ... if the SubsetSum project is dead just Retire it and we can all go happily dancing off into the sunset. :-)

Ray

But, all I need is less than 1.5 days of work to get my 5000 hours for WUProp for SubsetSum.


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Message 59766 - Posted: 30 Aug 2013, 20:29:54 UTC

I'm a fan of having the badge images represent physical things - such as the life cycle of a star, or cosmic distance scales.

As for badges, I think the first one should be easy to get - 10k credits or so, as sort of a "welcome to the project!" badge. The next step up could be 100k, and larger and larger from there. I don't think we should "punish" the CPU-only crunchers just because the GPU crunchers can get many more credits; instead, we should make the higher-level badges that much cooler. :)

A suggestion for increasingly bright star types, and stellar evolution:

Bok Globule -> Protoplanetary Disk -> Pre-main-sequence Star -> Brown Dwarf -> Red Dwarf (M) -> Orange MS (K) -> Yellow MS (G) -> Yellow-White MS (F) -> White MS (A) -> White-Blue MS (B) -> Blue MS (O) -> Subgiant -> Red Giant -> Blue Giant -> RR Lyrae Variable -> Cepheid Variable -> Nova -> Supernova -> Planetary Nebula -> White Dwarf -> Neutron Star -> Black Hole

Or Universe landmarks at distances equal to credit total in light-years:

1 credit - Galaxy Traveller (Leaving the Solar System)
25k - Galactic Center
66k - Sagittarius Dwarf Galaxy
175k - Large & Small Magellanic Clouds
450k - Fornax Dwarf Galaxy
820k - Leo I Dwarf Galaxy
1.4M - Phoenix Dwarf Galaxy
2.5M - Andromeda Galaxy
12.0M - M81 (Bode's Galaxy, most distant object visible to human eye)
27M - Pinwheel Galaxy
55M - Virgo Cluster
100M - Leaving the Local Supercluster
300M - Coma Cluster (First Evidence of Dark Matter!)
650M - Shapley Supercluster (Large nearby cluster of Galaxies)
1.0B - 1 Gigalightyear!
2.0B - Quasar 3C273 (First Quasar ever discovered)
[Other Stuff]
12.9 - Most distant known Quasar
13.7B - Edge of Observable Universe
62.0B - Cosmological Event Horizon

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Message 59767 - Posted: 30 Aug 2013, 20:33:00 UTC

Alternatively, we could do the life cycle of a single star (like the Sun), or the life of the Milky Way Galaxy (1 credit=1year), starting at the Big Bang. Badges would then be given when certain famous objects formed.

Also, we want to implement donor badges, for the many users who have donated currency to the project so far.

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Message 59768 - Posted: 30 Aug 2013, 20:51:08 UTC

I think your badge suggestion: Universe landmarks at distances equal to credit total in light-years fits great to this project.
Representing the large area of the milkyway same as the huge amount of computing power needed for this project

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Message 59772 - Posted: 31 Aug 2013, 11:49:55 UTC - in response to Message 59768.


Representing the large area of the milkyway

Oh, mistake, it should be called universe, of course ( but landmaks inside our galaxy would be great too )
Where is the edit button???

A nav bar would be nice, maybe with such a stats chart included:
http://registro.ibercivis.es/personal_stats.php?userid=129970

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