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Warren B. Rogers

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Message 4108 - Posted: 15 Jul 2008, 0:55:22 UTC

I just have a quick question. I was wondering if the WU length had been increased. I usually complete a WU in about 6.5 minutes but I've gotten a new WU that so far has taken 47 minutes to get to 10.7% completed and is reporting 47 minutes to complete. I thought maybe there might have been a problem with the WU so I suspended the WU and started a new one and it seems like this one is going to be a long completion time as well. I've tried to restart my BOINC Manager to see if there was something going on there but I still had the same long time to complete. Thank you in advance for your help.

Warren
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Message 4109 - Posted: 15 Jul 2008, 1:10:00 UTC
Last modified: 15 Jul 2008, 1:28:49 UTC

Yes, there was about an order of magnitude increase made in the run lengths with this morning's batch of new searches, so you probably want to get your host back to crunching them right away. ;-)

The catch here is Nathan didn't make a corresponding change in the FPOPS estimate so when the CC calculates the runtime estimates they are way off. There was also no increase in the deadlines, so the project is much tighter in terms of that now.

At this point, the only way the CC can compensate is with the TDCF, so you might have to keep an eye on the work stream for your MW hosts to make sure everything will within the deadline.

This most likely will only be an issue with slower hosts, ones running lots of projects, low resource share for MW, and/or part time crunchers.

<edit> I just read over Nathan's new thread today again, and it appears that a third batch was made which should only be about 5 times longer than the first two chugged out today. So expect some variations in times depending on what you draw.

Alinator
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Message 4111 - Posted: 15 Jul 2008, 1:34:59 UTC
Last modified: 15 Jul 2008, 1:36:26 UTC

I too have had a wu that was working on 55 min at only 5% done. I checked my other computers and found nothing funny about the work units they were working on, so I reset the project and I am now waiting for new WUs. I let each of the WUs run for a few minutes and found they all were going to run long before I reset them. This was not the fact on the other computers that have downloaded and uploaded WUs in the same number range. Maybe they were simply bad WUs.
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Message 4113 - Posted: 15 Jul 2008, 2:03:00 UTC

So... lessons learned by MilkyWay project folks (the hard way) today are;

a) When making changes to workunits, make them gradually or with PLENTY of advance warning.
b) When making changes to workunits, take a stab at changing estimated run times as well.
c) 4 cobblestones is probably a bit too much credit for a workunit that takes 10 minutes to complete, but a touch on the shy side for one that takes 15 hours.
d) The project scientists have an amazing knowledge of the science... the project developers have about the same amount of knowledge about BOINC.

See? It's been a great day for learning! :)

(All said with tongue firmly in cheek folks... for a project getting the beta kinks worked out, this one is well above par.)
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Alinator

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Message 4115 - Posted: 15 Jul 2008, 2:30:53 UTC - in response to Message 4109.  
Last modified: 15 Jul 2008, 2:33:59 UTC



<snip>

<edit> I just read over Nathan's new thread today again, and it appears that a third batch was made which should only be about 5 times longer than the first two chugged out today. So expect some variations in times depending on what you draw.

Alinator


Pardon the bad form of replying to myself, but this didn't come out the way I wanted! :-O

That should read ...about 5 times longer than the 'originals'..., rather than implying the third batch would be 50 times longer! ;-)

Alinator
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kctipton

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Message 4116 - Posted: 15 Jul 2008, 2:44:12 UTC

I think the updated units might be 100x larger than before (I've certainly spent well over 10x the usual time on some units today). Given that the 5-day deadline hasn't moved a lick, I'll be sitting these out until the parameters are all resolved.
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Alinator

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Message 4117 - Posted: 15 Jul 2008, 2:48:53 UTC
Last modified: 15 Jul 2008, 2:51:51 UTC

Agreed. The anecdotal early reports indicated about an order of magnitude increase, but the early indicators I'm getting so far are more like what you're seeing.

I don't think you have to sit on the side lines though. The TDCF should increment up big time once the first of the new batch goes through, and that should take care of the scheduling jams all other things being equal. It's just making it through that first big bite out of the you-know-what sandwich which is the problem! :-)

Alinator
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Message 4118 - Posted: 15 Jul 2008, 2:49:19 UTC

In my experience on the extra long ones, if it took 10 minutes before, it will take 10 hours now.

Calm Chaos Forum...Join Calm Chaos Now
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Warren B. Rogers

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Message 4122 - Posted: 15 Jul 2008, 2:57:23 UTC - in response to Message 4115.  
Last modified: 15 Jul 2008, 3:02:50 UTC

Thank you for the information it is greatly appreciated.

I'm not sure that I'll be able to get through all of the WUs that were downloaded resently since the size has changed but no change to the amount of time to complete stayed the same. I received about 15 WUs and I don't know if the given deadline will be enough time to get through all of them. When they were downloaded the estimated time for my computer was 6 mins 47 secs. I'm currently at 1 hour 41 mins and the estimated time to completion is at 1 hour 21 mins and still is counting upward. This is the 25% mark for the WU.

Again thank you for your help,

Warren Rogers
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Message 4124 - Posted: 15 Jul 2008, 2:59:55 UTC - in response to Message 4122.  

Thank you for the information it is greatly appreciated.

I'm not sure that I'll be able to get through all of the WUs that were downloaded resently since the size has changed but no change to the amount of time to complete stayed the same. I received about 15 WUs and I don't know if the given deadline will be enough time to get through all of them. When they were downloaded the estimated time for my computer was 6 mins 47 secs. I'm currently at 1 hour 41 mins and the estimated time to completion is at 1 hour 21 mins and still is counting upward.

Again thank you for your help,

Warren Rogers



Please remember that the new estimated times are still wrong until you complete 1.....like the short tasks it runs slow to 50% then speeds up dramatically.
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Message 4126 - Posted: 15 Jul 2008, 3:19:17 UTC

Over here, the old work units were taking about 7 minutes and the newer ones (gs 3720282) are taking about 7 hours. That's a 60-fold increase by my reckoning.

The last work unit crunched took 7h 03m 26s to 50% and then 33s to 100% for a total of 7h 03m 59s.

I've yet to crunch any of the shoter new work units; I'll report back on the times when I get some.

Just to let folks know. :-)

Rob.
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Message 4128 - Posted: 15 Jul 2008, 4:16:26 UTC

Old ones were 2:30, new ones are as well 2:30. Only the for the old ones it was minutes, for the new ones it's hours. So the same her as with niterobin.

What's the nearly same as well is the ridiculous amount of credits that gets tossed after completed ones, on the first one here even 10% more. One third to one quarter should be enough.
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Message 4129 - Posted: 15 Jul 2008, 5:16:27 UTC - in response to Message 4128.  
Last modified: 15 Jul 2008, 5:22:44 UTC

Old ones were 2:30, new ones are as well 2:30. Only the for the old ones it was minutes, for the new ones it's hours. So the same her as with niterobin.

What's the nearly same as well is the ridiculous amount of credits that gets tossed after completed ones, on the first one here even 10% more. One third to one quarter should be enough.



Saenger ....Are you the credit Police? What is your problem dude...1st Cosmo now here! Credits here were voted on...every vote counted to the credit we receive(including yours)....I thought credit discussion was done here....always at least one guy that likes to stir it up.Are you employed by DA?Apparently you perfer gestapoism to democracy...Please just go crunch projects with no credit and leave the rest of us in peace.....Grrrrrrrr
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sysfried

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Message 4130 - Posted: 15 Jul 2008, 7:24:50 UTC - in response to Message 4129.  




Saenger ....Are you the credit Police? What is your problem dude...1st Cosmo now here! Credits here were voted on...every vote counted to the credit we receive(including yours)....I thought credit discussion was done here....always at least one guy that likes to stir it up.Are you employed by DA?Apparently you perfer gestapoism to democracy...Please just go crunch projects with no credit and leave the rest of us in peace.....Grrrrrrrr


ignore him.

back to the topic. I too noticed an up of aprox. 60-fold time from 9 min to 9 hours on a E2000 core2

And I agree to the lessons to be learned.... Notify the users, but hey, I found this thread... I can read... It just took me longer and I too reset a few hosts after seeing skyrocketing crunching times.

Best wishes,

Sysfried
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Warren B. Rogers

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Message 4132 - Posted: 15 Jul 2008, 7:42:36 UTC - in response to Message 4129.  

Old ones were 2:30, new ones are as well 2:30. Only the for the old ones it was minutes, for the new ones it's hours. So the same her as with niterobin.

What's the nearly same as well is the ridiculous amount of credits that gets tossed after completed ones, on the first one here even 10% more. One third to one quarter should be enough.



Saenger ....Are you the credit Police? What is your problem dude...1st Cosmo now here! Credits here were voted on...every vote counted to the credit we receive(including yours)....I thought credit discussion was done here....always at least one guy that likes to stir it up.Are you employed by DA?Apparently you perfer gestapoism to democracy...Please just go crunch projects with no credit and leave the rest of us in peace.....Grrrrrrrr


I actually have to agree with Saenger. If I only get 4.06 cobbles for 6.5 hours of work which is what I got for 6.5 minutes of work, it's not worth the effort, I have other projects that I work on. That's definitely not enough credit especially since if I don't get through all 15 WUs in the next 5 days I will loose credit for the WUs that don't get done. I figure that will be about 40 credits off of my score. My BOINC manager downloaded the amount that it usually does for the 6.5 min WU. Now the WU may take up to 6.5 hours. Is it fair that I will lose credit for the WUs that I don't get through because they didn't extend the time to complete the WUs although they increased the amount of work to be done?
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Message 4133 - Posted: 15 Jul 2008, 7:49:51 UTC - in response to Message 4132.  
Last modified: 15 Jul 2008, 7:54:15 UTC

I actually have to agree with Saenger. If I only get 4.06 cobbles for 6.5 hours of work which is what I got for 6.5 minutes of work, it's not worth the effort, I have other projects that I work on. That's definitely not enough credit especially since if I don't get through all 15 WUs in the next 5 days I will loose credit for the WUs that don't get done. I figure that will be about 40 credits off of my score. My BOINC manager downloaded the amount that it usually does for the 6.5 min WU. Now the WU may take up to 6.5 hours. Is it fair that I will lose credit for the WUs that I don't get through because they didn't extend the time to complete the WUs although they increased the amount of work to be done?

You misunderstanded that.
Saenger complains about too much credits.
Actually you get 139,29 credits for the series 373, 260 for the even longer ones...
I finish a WU of 373 in 2h 15min (under Linux 64-Bit), which gives me over 62 credits/h!!!
That's what he talks about. ;-)
Member of BOINC@Heidelberg and ATA!

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Warren B. Rogers

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Message 4134 - Posted: 15 Jul 2008, 8:07:56 UTC - in response to Message 4133.  

I actually have to agree with Saenger. If I only get 4.06 cobbles for 6.5 hours of work which is what I got for 6.5 minutes of work, it's not worth the effort, I have other projects that I work on. That's definitely not enough credit especially since if I don't get through all 15 WUs in the next 5 days I will loose credit for the WUs that don't get done. I figure that will be about 40 credits off of my score. My BOINC manager downloaded the amount that it usually does for the 6.5 min WU. Now the WU may take up to 6.5 hours. Is it fair that I will lose credit for the WUs that I don't get through because they didn't extend the time to complete the WUs although they increased the amount of work to be done?

You misunderstanded that.
Saenger complains about too much credits.
Actually you get 139,29 credits for the series 373, 260 for the even longer ones...
I finish a WU of 373 in 2h 15min (under Linux 64-Bit), which gives me over 62 credits/h!!!
That's what he talks about. ;-)


Thanks for putting me straight I thought he was complaining about not enough credit. If they have scaled the amount of credit up that's fine with me. I don't understand how they can give too much credit? I also do work with World Community Grid and they don't like how BOINC assigns credit. They issue the amount that BOINC assigns for BOINC stats but then they multiple the amount by 7 for credit that they have on their site. Kind of interesting that someone would complain about getting too much credit when most people complain about not getting enough.

Thanks,

Warren
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Message 4140 - Posted: 15 Jul 2008, 15:48:46 UTC - in response to Message 4134.  

Thanks for putting me straight I thought he was complaining about not enough credit. If they have scaled the amount of credit up that's fine with me. I don't understand how they can give too much credit? I also do work with World Community Grid and they don't like how BOINC assigns credit. They issue the amount that BOINC assigns for BOINC stats but then they multiple the amount by 7 for credit that they have on their site. Kind of interesting that someone would complain about getting too much credit when most people complain about not getting enough.

I'd like cross-project fairness be implemented. For now the range of credits per work done differs on most projects, although most of the projects run more or less smack in the middle. There are just some that seem to worth themselves so scientific unattractive that they give credits beyond reason (That's at least Cosmo and Milkyway, perhaps some of the more obscure as well), others that have such a great confidence in their worthiness that they give sub-standard credits (like WCG and LHC on my puter).

The range of credits per hour and core on my puter is from 10 to 110, my (cheatfree) bench value would be 25, I get about 30 on average from most of the projects. The real low end are some alpha projects, where such stuff is supposed to happen. That's the fun of being ATA ;)

And regarding the own, traditional, points system at WCG: That's a fine example how much they like cross project fairness. They had this old points system implemented long before BOINC started for their own UD cient. Once they joined BOINC they started the alternative Credit system to stay on level with BOINC and not to grant their 7-times too high own points as credits.
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Message 4141 - Posted: 15 Jul 2008, 16:13:28 UTC
Last modified: 15 Jul 2008, 16:15:29 UTC

Why don't you go to the other projects and whine about the credits being too low. Or better yet just start a petition to ban credits period. That would solve all your problems and we could read message boards in peace.

Every message board has your credits are too high crap all over them..... give it a rest dude....
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Message 4143 - Posted: 15 Jul 2008, 16:35:01 UTC

Hello,
is it planed, that the time to report a crunched wu will be longer?
"Old" machines have now a little problem with 20 WU a'17h and end date only 5 days in the future?
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