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ProfileJayargh
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Message 4408 - Posted: 23 Jul 2008, 5:26:39 UTC
Last modified: 23 Jul 2008, 5:58:56 UTC

Lets now examine that the possibility exists after some of the discussion here in Milkyway@home that this client is designed down the road to force a credit resolution from the builders(whatever that might be) without our foreknowledge....embedded within the code......once everyone is running it.....hmmm... wouldn't put it passed them after what I have seen.

I can only figure if that is the case that they can't force you to update to it or force the project to upgrade the server edition to force ver 6 as the minimum client....I may be wrong.

Just write me off as paranoid-delusional.....maybe
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Message 4410 - Posted: 23 Jul 2008, 8:04:31 UTC

Seems like a good idea to me. Most of the project scientists don't have the time to worry about credit rates. Having a client/server version that handles the adjustment for them automatically should help alot in the credit flame wars.
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Message 4413 - Posted: 23 Jul 2008, 9:49:22 UTC

I can only figure if that is the case that they can't force you to update to it or force the project to upgrade the server edition to force ver 6 as the minimum client....I may be wrong.


I don't think Berkeley & Dr. A can really force any Project to do anything, if they could he would have had his way a long time ago on the Issue of Credit Parity. They can Prod & Plead & Cajole them into Upgrading their Server Edition to the new v6.?.? but thats going to take quite awhile to get all the projects in line to do that.

Personally I think it will be a good thing, as Keck said it would stop all the Credit Flame Wars, at least I would hope it would. But does it stop the Cheating that seems to go on at every new Project when they first start out ... ???
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Message 4432 - Posted: 23 Jul 2008, 21:11:15 UTC - in response to Message 4413.  

I can only figure if that is the case that they can't force you to update to it or force the project to upgrade the server edition to force ver 6 as the minimum client....I may be wrong.


I don't think Berkeley & Dr. A can really force any Project to do anything, if they could he would have had his way a long time ago on the Issue of Credit Parity. They can Prod & Plead & Cajole them into Upgrading their Server Edition to the new v6.?.? but thats going to take quite awhile to get all the projects in line to do that.

Personally I think it will be a good thing, as Keck said it would stop all the Credit Flame Wars, at least I would hope it would. But does it stop the Cheating that seems to go on at every new Project when they first start out ... ???

No, unfortunately, it wouldn't. Unless someone can think of a way to prevent that as well (I would love to hear some suggestions).


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Message 4434 - Posted: 23 Jul 2008, 21:56:22 UTC - in response to Message 4432.  
Last modified: 23 Jul 2008, 21:58:03 UTC

I can only figure if that is the case that they can't force you to update to it or force the project to upgrade the server edition to force ver 6 as the minimum client....I may be wrong.


I don't think Berkeley & Dr. A can really force any Project to do anything, if they could he would have had his way a long time ago on the Issue of Credit Parity. They can Prod & Plead & Cajole them into Upgrading their Server Edition to the new v6.?.? but thats going to take quite awhile to get all the projects in line to do that.

Personally I think it will be a good thing, as Keck said it would stop all the Credit Flame Wars, at least I would hope it would. But does it stop the Cheating that seems to go on at every new Project when they first start out ... ???

No, unfortunately, it wouldn't. Unless someone can think of a way to prevent that as well (I would love to hear some suggestions).


The only way to stop the Cheating is to make an example out of some of them, if somebody's Account with Millions of Credits were deleted across the Projects that might get their attention. It's the same people at every new Project that do the Cheating & it doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to figure out who they are.

But that will never happen because most if not all Project Dev's don't really care about it. They have other things to be worried about besides who's cheating and who's not cheating ...
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Message 4436 - Posted: 23 Jul 2008, 23:23:30 UTC - in response to Message 4434.  

I can only figure if that is the case that they can't force you to update to it or force the project to upgrade the server edition to force ver 6 as the minimum client....I may be wrong.


I don't think Berkeley & Dr. A can really force any Project to do anything, if they could he would have had his way a long time ago on the Issue of Credit Parity. They can Prod & Plead & Cajole them into Upgrading their Server Edition to the new v6.?.? but thats going to take quite awhile to get all the projects in line to do that.

Personally I think it will be a good thing, as Keck said it would stop all the Credit Flame Wars, at least I would hope it would. But does it stop the Cheating that seems to go on at every new Project when they first start out ... ???

No, unfortunately, it wouldn't. Unless someone can think of a way to prevent that as well (I would love to hear some suggestions).


The only way to stop the Cheating is to make an example out of some of them, if somebody's Account with Millions of Credits were deleted across the Projects that might get their attention. It's the same people at every new Project that do the Cheating & it doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to figure out who they are.

But that will never happen because most if not all Project Dev's don't really care about it. They have other things to be worried about besides who's cheating and who's not cheating ...

That was done to one person that was distributing BOINC as a virus payload. He lost all credits at all projects (eventually). He also had some accounts just plain deleted. There was one project, however, that killed the messengers (grumble).

There is currently a move to undo the damage done by the Space Families team. They like to take over teams where the founder did not for some reason get the transfer email. I am hoping that they lose all credits across BOINC.

So far, people that cheat on credits on one project have only been punished on that project.

The BOINC developers do care about credit cheats, but even more about those that cheat on the science. Cheating on the science is one reason for having 2 tasks / WU and making certain that they match. This also blocks the credit cheats.


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Message 4437 - Posted: 24 Jul 2008, 0:09:09 UTC - in response to Message 4436.  

The BOINC developers do care about credit cheats, but even more about those that cheat on the science. Cheating on the science is one reason for having 2 tasks / WU and making certain that they match. This also blocks the credit cheats.


I believe that nano took 3 results to validate, threw the odd one out and averaged the other 2.
Doesn't expecting the unexpected make the unexpected the expected?
If it makes sense, DON'T do it.
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Message 4438 - Posted: 24 Jul 2008, 0:41:11 UTC

There is currently a move to undo the damage done by the Space Families team. They like to take over teams where the founder did not for some reason get the transfer email. I am hoping that they lose all credits across BOINC.


Yes, they took over a Team I had originally Founded & then Transfered the Foundership to another Person. Apparently he never responded or just plain quit the BOINC Projects so they took over the Team

But the Project did some back tracking and my User Name came up as being the original Founder and Ageless contacted me about it & with Eric's help @ the Project I got the Team back & was restored as the Founder once again ... :)
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Message 4439 - Posted: 24 Jul 2008, 0:50:47 UTC - in response to Message 4437.  
Last modified: 24 Jul 2008, 0:53:10 UTC

The BOINC developers do care about credit cheats, but even more about those that cheat on the science. Cheating on the science is one reason for having 2 tasks / WU and making certain that they match. This also blocks the credit cheats.


I believe that nano took 3 results to validate, threw the odd one out and averaged the other 2.


Actually, that applies whenever the quorum is three or more. With a quorum of two the lower is what's granted.

In the early days SAH and EAH required at least three tasks returned as well to validate and grant credit on, but that was to accomodate the peculiarities of the BM-T credit system as much as anything else.

When they switched to other scoring methodologies, they went to two tasks for verifying the science.

In fact, if you have followed along at SAH, BOINC still will grant the lower of the two task claims. This is what happens if you get paired up with a host running a non-FLOP counting aware CC, since they typically come in with a low claim.

Also, don't forget that in multi-task validation scenarios, the science is verified first, and then the decision is made about credit. IOW's the host which sets the credit granted for the WU doesn't necessarily have to be the host which produces the canonical result. It can just as easily be the canonical task is thrown out for credit purposes.

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Message 4440 - Posted: 24 Jul 2008, 1:02:06 UTC - in response to Message 4439.  

The BOINC developers do care about credit cheats, but even more about those that cheat on the science. Cheating on the science is one reason for having 2 tasks / WU and making certain that they match. This also blocks the credit cheats.


I believe that nano took 3 results to validate, threw the odd one out and averaged the other 2.


Actually, that applies whenever the quorum is three or more. With a quorum of two the lower is what's granted.

In the early days SAH and EAH required at least three tasks returned as well to validate and grant credit on, but that was to accomodate the peculiarities of the BM-T credit system as much as anything else.

When they switched to other scoring methodologies, they went to two tasks for verifying the science.

In fact, if you have followed along at SAH, BOINC still will grant the lower of the two task claims. This is what happens if you get paired up with a host running a non-FLOP counting aware CC, since they typically come in with a low claim.

Also, don't forget that in multi-task validation scenarios, the science is verified first, and then the decision is made about credit. IOW's the host which sets the credit granted for the WU doesn't necessarily have to be the host which produces the canonical result. It can just as easily be the canonical task is thrown out for credit purposes.

Alinator

With a quorum of 3 or more, the high and low credit requests are discarded and the rest are averaged.

Typically after verification that the tasks match, the one that is chosen to grant credit is also chosen as the canonical result. I know it doesn't have to be that way, but it is as good as picking one of the matching results at random.


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Message 4441 - Posted: 24 Jul 2008, 1:03:19 UTC - in response to Message 4438.  

There is currently a move to undo the damage done by the Space Families team. They like to take over teams where the founder did not for some reason get the transfer email. I am hoping that they lose all credits across BOINC.


Yes, they took over a Team I had originally Founded & then Transfered the Foundership to another Person. Apparently he never responded or just plain quit the BOINC Projects so they took over the Team

But the Project did some back tracking and my User Name came up as being the original Founder and Ageless contacted me about it & with Eric's help @ the Project I got the Team back & was restored as the Founder once again ... :)

Congratulations on getting your team back. Do you have any ideas on how to prevent this from happening in the future?


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Message 4442 - Posted: 24 Jul 2008, 1:08:22 UTC - in response to Message 4441.  

There is currently a move to undo the damage done by the Space Families team. They like to take over teams where the founder did not for some reason get the transfer email. I am hoping that they lose all credits across BOINC.


Yes, they took over a Team I had originally Founded & then Transfered the Foundership to another Person. Apparently he never responded or just plain quit the BOINC Projects so they took over the Team

But the Project did some back tracking and my User Name came up as being the original Founder and Ageless contacted me about it & with Eric's help @ the Project I got the Team back & was restored as the Founder once again ... :)

Congratulations on getting your team back. Do you have any ideas on how to prevent this from happening in the future?


Not really, all you can do is hope to get the Founder Transfer Request & reply one way or the other to it. If you don't get the request then after a certain period of time I think the Team can be Transferred to whomever's requesting it.

Thats the way it's set up now so you have to live with it or die by it ...
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Message 4444 - Posted: 24 Jul 2008, 1:37:27 UTC - in response to Message 4442.  

There is currently a move to undo the damage done by the Space Families team. They like to take over teams where the founder did not for some reason get the transfer email. I am hoping that they lose all credits across BOINC.


Yes, they took over a Team I had originally Founded & then Transfered the Foundership to another Person. Apparently he never responded or just plain quit the BOINC Projects so they took over the Team

But the Project did some back tracking and my User Name came up as being the original Founder and Ageless contacted me about it & with Eric's help @ the Project I got the Team back & was restored as the Founder once again ... :)

Congratulations on getting your team back. Do you have any ideas on how to prevent this from happening in the future?


Not really, all you can do is hope to get the Founder Transfer Request & reply one way or the other to it. If you don't get the request then after a certain period of time I think the Team can be Transferred to whomever's requesting it.

Thats the way it's set up now so you have to live with it or die by it ...

That is how it works currently. It could be changed if it needed to be.


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Message 4447 - Posted: 24 Jul 2008, 1:51:00 UTC - in response to Message 4444.  

There is currently a move to undo the damage done by the Space Families team. They like to take over teams where the founder did not for some reason get the transfer email. I am hoping that they lose all credits across BOINC.


Yes, they took over a Team I had originally Founded & then Transfered the Foundership to another Person. Apparently he never responded or just plain quit the BOINC Projects so they took over the Team

But the Project did some back tracking and my User Name came up as being the original Founder and Ageless contacted me about it & with Eric's help @ the Project I got the Team back & was restored as the Founder once again ... :)

Congratulations on getting your team back. Do you have any ideas on how to prevent this from happening in the future?


Not really, all you can do is hope to get the Founder Transfer Request & reply one way or the other to it. If you don't get the request then after a certain period of time I think the Team can be Transferred to whomever's requesting it.

Thats the way it's set up now so you have to live with it or die by it ...

That is how it works currently. It could be changed if it needed to be.


Okay then how about making it a Pre-Requisite that a Person has to be a member of a Team for at least say 1 Year before they can even ask for Founder Transfer. That way it would take the 1 Year the person has to be on the Team Plus the 2 Months the Original founder has to reply before a person could pull the rug out from under an existing Team Founder & Team Members already on the Team.

I don't know if that would be feasible or could even be written into the Code but it would be a Deterrent anyway knowing you would have to be on a Team 14 Months before you could take control of it ... ???
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Message 4448 - Posted: 24 Jul 2008, 3:03:15 UTC - in response to Message 4447.  

There is currently a move to undo the damage done by the Space Families team. They like to take over teams where the founder did not for some reason get the transfer email. I am hoping that they lose all credits across BOINC.


Yes, they took over a Team I had originally Founded & then Transfered the Foundership to another Person. Apparently he never responded or just plain quit the BOINC Projects so they took over the Team

But the Project did some back tracking and my User Name came up as being the original Founder and Ageless contacted me about it & with Eric's help @ the Project I got the Team back & was restored as the Founder once again ... :)

Congratulations on getting your team back. Do you have any ideas on how to prevent this from happening in the future?


Not really, all you can do is hope to get the Founder Transfer Request & reply one way or the other to it. If you don't get the request then after a certain period of time I think the Team can be Transferred to whomever's requesting it.

Thats the way it's set up now so you have to live with it or die by it ...

That is how it works currently. It could be changed if it needed to be.


Okay then how about making it a Pre-Requisite that a Person has to be a member of a Team for at least say 1 Year before they can even ask for Founder Transfer. That way it would take the 1 Year the person has to be on the Team Plus the 2 Months the Original founder has to reply before a person could pull the rug out from under an existing Team Founder & Team Members already on the Team.

I don't know if that would be feasible or could even be written into the Code but it would be a Deterrent anyway knowing you would have to be on a Team 14 Months before you could take control of it ... ???

There is an ongoing conversation about what to do about this, and that was one of the suggestions.

One that has been implemented but is not as widely distributed as I would like is that if the team member that requested the transfer quits the team the transfer is also stopped. This prevents rapid sampling which this team did.

Others that have been proposed but have not been implemented (yet) include a minimum time in the team before a transfer can be requested (the same as you suggested). Locking teams that have not had any credits granted for a while from both membership additions and founder transfers other than a founder transfer initiated by the founder. Sending a few more emails about the founder transfer - there have been three different schedules proposed.


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Message 4449 - Posted: 24 Jul 2008, 9:22:46 UTC

Okay, at least something will be done it sounds like to help either stop or at least Deter somebody from trying it. I like the Idea of having to be on a Team for a certain Time Period before that person can even ask for a Transfer of Foundership.

But that shouldn't stop a Voluntary Transfer of the Foundership to that person or even another another person if so desired. I say that because I know some Teams are Founded by the only person on a Team who gets into a Project & then Account Creation is closed for a time period.

Then when Account Creation is re-opened & other Team Members get into the Project the Foundership is transfered to a Central Person. I know thats how the AMDUser's Team does it because I founded a few Teams for them & the when Vaughan manged to get into the Project I transfered the Foundership to him & lots of other people on the Team did the same thing.
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Message 4450 - Posted: 24 Jul 2008, 12:43:32 UTC - in response to Message 4449.  

Okay, at least something will be done it sounds like to help either stop or at least Deter somebody from trying it. I like the Idea of having to be on a Team for a certain Time Period before that person can even ask for a Transfer of Foundership.

But that shouldn't stop a Voluntary Transfer of the Foundership to that person or even another another person if so desired. I say that because I know some Teams are Founded by the only person on a Team who gets into a Project & then Account Creation is closed for a time period.

Then when Account Creation is re-opened & other Team Members get into the Project the Foundership is transfered to a Central Person. I know thats how the AMDUser's Team does it because I founded a few Teams for them & the when Vaughan manged to get into the Project I transfered the Foundership to him & lots of other people on the Team did the same thing.

Founder initiated transfers are typically not a mechanism for stealing a team (there has been one exception where the true founder left on vacation and their replacement was bamboozled into a transfer that they should not have done). There have been no restrictions discussed on founder initiated transfers.


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Message 4451 - Posted: 24 Jul 2008, 13:48:22 UTC - in response to Message 4410.  
Last modified: 24 Jul 2008, 14:10:23 UTC

Seems like a good idea to me. Most of the project scientists don't have the time to worry about credit rates. Having a client/server version that handles the adjustment for them automatically should help alot in the credit flame wars.


Now if ya'll are done hijacking my thread about hijacked teams I have a few other things to say ;)...seriously now... that was important subject matter and good information about teams so that is fine with me :)

If I have to look at the 3 solutions on hand (solutions to a contrived problem)...The 1st being employed now obviously has no appeal to me especially due it being uneven-handed and inflamming.

2nd option ...to intimidate stat sites and then make them change the xml updates from the projects is an even worse solution and really is no solution as the problem still exists and is stupid brute force applied by scientists who should know better.

I see option 3 as being the only way out... as stated...it might stop the bickering and flame wars and make boards more pleasant to be on.......and it might be the way to get low projects to grant higher and make the Bell curve of credit less steep.

Reduced credits by this method? Along as it applied evenly to everyone I don't care...just do it sooner than later so participants won't have to feel pistol whipped anymore.

I would say there is a 4th solution and that is leave it alone......but that isn't going to happen now is it? ;).....So if there are any other ideas out there that might work please share with us...

To me this is really like trying to force a single world currency on all countries.....and won't work properly because different countries have different needs....look at the Euro ...it has both helped and hurt indivdual countries and regional currencies tend to work better .
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