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ProfileJayargh
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Message 4510 - Posted: 29 Jul 2008, 4:09:20 UTC
Last modified: 29 Jul 2008, 5:03:18 UTC

This is why Seti will continue a 'credit' advantage over all the other projects....

They have no peer review...who else is using 'science' to look for little green men?

They have to answer to no one of why they have no control of their 3rd party apps and hence no control over their data....they can churn out countless 'results' of the data which can really not be verified,but seem to make its users happy.They only care about getting as many cpu cycles as they can get and keep at the detriment of all other projects,under the guise of "leveling the playing field".I am finding that with the right technology & app at Seti you can get 300% of what the stock app gives you(maybe more)...fair?

Most projects justify their existence of being by writing papers based on their results and keeping control of the process.....peer review of published data can disregard the data without proper controls on it....if data is in question so is the projects 'being'.So we see no 3rd party app shenanigans from other projects.

Its as if the children are becoming more popular than the parent and now the parent is jealous and conspires to 'horde' its popularity.

Hail Hail mighty Seti King of Intimidation and Unfair practices....and I thought one of the goals of Boinc was to allow projects to be autonomous! When the double-speak stops we may listen.

This is now Seti vs. Boinc.
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John McLeod VII
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Message 4513 - Posted: 29 Jul 2008, 13:12:25 UTC

The change I believe that you are talking about is an attempt to raise the credit grants of those projects that are too low, and lower the credit grants of those that are too high to make them more closely equal. I really don't understand how this is giving S@H a credit advantage.


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ProfileCappy [Team Musketeers]
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Message 4528 - Posted: 29 Jul 2008, 23:30:50 UTC - in response to Message 4513.  
Last modified: 29 Jul 2008, 23:32:17 UTC

The change I believe that you are talking about is an attempt to raise the credit grants of those projects that are too low, and lower the credit grants of those that are too high to make them more closely equal. I really don't understand how this is giving S@H a credit advantage.


lol this has nothing to do with leveling the playing field,

this has to do with well i wont name names but lowering every other

projects credits to try to gain back what seti has lost all on their own.

people have tried to get other projects to lower their credit with SETI

hoping it would gain back their VOLUNTEERS but being that hasnt work

the maker of the BOINC client has firgured out a way of making his own

DICTATORSHIP!!!!! were the credit granted will be FORCED APON the project

that wont comply to THEIR way of thinking. each project will no longer be

able to grant the credit they think is fair for the work being done, the BOINC

client will now TELL THEM what it thinks their project is worth. in my eyes

this is Bs. What the hell gives the creator of BOINC the right to determine what a project

can give out as far as credit for work done???? what gives him the right to

put a noose around these other project admins neck and force them to comply???

its spelt out in 1 word Dictatorship!!!!!! well there goes freadom of speech,,

freedom of choice, projects freedom to grant THEIR volunteers the credit

they think their worth.
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ProfileKevint
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Message 4531 - Posted: 30 Jul 2008, 0:11:14 UTC - in response to Message 4528.  

Cappy carefull,

If you were posting this on the SETI message boards you would be modded!!


LMAO! All hail to DA!! (Dr Anderson) or just D.A.
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John McLeod VII
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Message 4533 - Posted: 30 Jul 2008, 0:47:37 UTC - in response to Message 4528.  

The change I believe that you are talking about is an attempt to raise the credit grants of those projects that are too low, and lower the credit grants of those that are too high to make them more closely equal. I really don't understand how this is giving S@H a credit advantage.


lol this has nothing to do with leveling the playing field,

this has to do with well i wont name names but lowering every other

projects credits to try to gain back what seti has lost all on their own.

people have tried to get other projects to lower their credit with SETI

hoping it would gain back their VOLUNTEERS but being that hasnt work

the maker of the BOINC client has firgured out a way of making his own

DICTATORSHIP!!!!! were the credit granted will be FORCED APON the project

that wont comply to THEIR way of thinking. each project will no longer be

able to grant the credit they think is fair for the work being done, the BOINC

client will now TELL THEM what it thinks their project is worth. in my eyes

this is Bs. What the hell gives the creator of BOINC the right to determine what a project

can give out as far as credit for work done???? what gives him the right to

put a noose around these other project admins neck and force them to comply???

its spelt out in 1 word Dictatorship!!!!!! well there goes freadom of speech,,

freedom of choice, projects freedom to grant THEIR volunteers the credit

they think their worth.

Part of the complaint is that people have not been after projects that have been under granting credits to raise their grants. This is supposed to fix that problem as well. It is supposed to lower the grants of those projects that are granting too much and raise the grants of the projects that are granting too little. It is all about leveling credits across all BOINC projects.


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ProfileCappy [Team Musketeers]
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Message 4536 - Posted: 30 Jul 2008, 2:19:33 UTC
Last modified: 30 Jul 2008, 2:23:44 UTC

you can say and talk all the crap you want,, the point is their taking away

a persons right to choose what they want to do... their taking away a project

admin's right to run his/her project the way they want. what gives them, you or

anyone else that right to make our choices for us.... you think SETI has lost

volenteers now lol,, you aint seen nothing yet... if this goes through i think

SETI and boinc's founder is in for a rude awakening.... taking our freedom of

choice of us is the WORST thing anyone can do to another person. we will still

have our choice to choose another client other then BOINC...

SETI and BOINC founder has made some BAD choices already and thats why SETI has

suffered, this is just one more that will put the nail in the coffin....

go ahead make this happen let the few make the choices for the many and i

totaly believe that the MANY will show you what they think of the few.

take our right, the project admin's rights to choose, take our freedom away

and start the DICTATORSHIP that will end BOINC all together.

SETI thinks they have lost volenteers now,,, YOU AINT SEEN NOTHING YET.


you guys are making this personal, your messing with our rights to choose

bad move on your parts IMO.
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Message 4537 - Posted: 30 Jul 2008, 3:06:55 UTC - in response to Message 4536.  

Recently responding to Eric Korpela regarding recent s@h changes on the s@h "Number Crunching" community message board I wrote:

"I think BOINC should merely be a common interface between projects, forget the inter-project comparisons and let the projects stand on their own merits with credit competition merely within each project. I see a lot of sideways looks at so called "credit whores" chasing the best credit paying across projects, but BOINC created the animal and the "problem". The multi-project teams could still exist, with standing within each project being the measure of comparison."

To me this seems to provide a simple solution, I can't see it happening without a large uprising amongst the various BOINC projects. I think David P. Anderson (BTW a man I admire for his great contributions) has to rethink the merits of BOINC combined scores and weightings versus the hostility it is creating.


UncleVom


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ProfileWestsail and *Pyxey*
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Message 4538 - Posted: 30 Jul 2008, 3:23:54 UTC - in response to Message 4536.  

you can say and talk all the crap you want,, the point is their taking away

a persons right to choose what they want to do... their taking away a project

admin's right to run his/her project the way they want. what gives them, you or

anyone else that right to make our choices for us.... you think SETI has lost

volenteers now lol,, you aint seen nothing yet... if this goes through i think

SETI and boinc's founder is in for a rude awakening.... taking our freedom of

choice of us is the WORST thing anyone can do to another person. we will still

have our choice to choose another client other then BOINC...

SETI and BOINC founder has made some BAD choices already and thats why SETI has

suffered, this is just one more that will put the nail in the coffin....

go ahead make this happen let the few make the choices for the many and i

totaly believe that the MANY will show you what they think of the few.

take our right, the project admin's rights to choose, take our freedom away

and start the DICTATORSHIP that will end BOINC all together.

SETI thinks they have lost volenteers now,,, YOU AINT SEEN NOTHING YET.


you guys are making this personal, your messing with our rights to choose

bad move on your parts IMO.

Amen!
So I have a bit of personal philosophy that has served me well over the years.
I figure out what everyone else is doing, then do the opposite.
Is there another game in town? Got all these puters sittin here. If not boinc what else? Sounds like a plan to me. Would be funny is DA woke up and no contributers anymore. LOL

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Message 4539 - Posted: 30 Jul 2008, 3:24:27 UTC - in response to Message 4537.  

Recently responding to Eric Korpela regarding recent s@h changes on the s@h "Number Crunching" community message board I wrote:

"I think BOINC should merely be a common interface between projects, forget the inter-project comparisons and let the projects stand on their own merits with credit competition merely within each project. I see a lot of sideways looks at so called "credit whores" chasing the best credit paying across projects, but BOINC created the animal and the "problem". The multi-project teams could still exist, with standing within each project being the measure of comparison."

To me this seems to provide a simple solution, I can't see it happening without a large uprising amongst the various BOINC projects. I think David P. Anderson (BTW a man I admire for his great contributions) has to rethink the merits of BOINC combined scores and weightings versus the hostility it is creating.


UncleVom



I couldn't agree more UV. :)
12/21/2012? Bah Humbug!

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ProfileCappy [Team Musketeers]
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Message 4566 - Posted: 30 Jul 2008, 22:38:46 UTC
Last modified: 30 Jul 2008, 22:39:58 UTC

the point is this will put 1 man in control

of every project that uses Boinc. he will have

total control over the credit granting system.

ok so who made him GOD, what right does he have

to control the credit system, what right does he

have to say what a project is worth or its

volunteers???

ya know i think Spock said it best

the needs of the many out wheigh the needs of the FEW

or the ONE! so what gives him the right to make

this choice for us??? the people that seti lost didnt

leave becasue another project gives out more credit,

they left becasue of STUPID CRAP like this. SETI

prolly has 75% of all the crunching power in the DC

community. and the key word is volunteers, we dont work

for these projects we volunteer our time and money.

could you imagin SET@home trying to crunch all their

data by themselves?? what we the volunteers do in a day

would take them years on their own??? keep frakin with

the ONLY thing we get for VOLUNTERRING our time and machines.

1 man should not have control over every projects credit, only the

project admin's for said projects should have that control

NOT 1 MAN !!!!! thats called a DICTATORSHIP PEOPLE !!!!!!!
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John McLeod VII
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Message 4567 - Posted: 30 Jul 2008, 22:49:20 UTC - in response to Message 4566.  

the point is this will put 1 man in control

of every project that uses Boinc. he will have

total control over the credit granting system.

ok so who made him GOD, what right does he have

to control the credit system, what right does he

have to say what a project is worth or its

volunteers???

ya know i think Spock said it best

the needs of the many out wheigh the needs of the FEW

or the ONE! so what gives him the right to make

this choice for us??? the people that seti lost didnt

leave becasue another project gives out more credit,

they left becasue of STUPID CRAP like this. SETI

prolly has 75% of all the crunching power in the DC

community. and the key word is volunteers, we dont work

for these projects we volunteer our time and money.

could you imagin SET@home trying to crunch all their

data by themselves?? what we the volunteers do in a day

would take them years on their own??? keep frakin with

the ONLY thing we get for VOLUNTERRING our time and machines.

1 man should not have control over every projects credit, only the

project admin's for said projects should have that control

NOT 1 MAN !!!!! thats called a DICTATORSHIP PEOPLE !!!!!!!

Yes, and I would call you one of the few.


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Message 4569 - Posted: 30 Jul 2008, 23:35:56 UTC
Last modified: 30 Jul 2008, 23:39:37 UTC

What is all the talk about SETI worrying about not giving enough credit....what a joke. An optimised SETI app gives one of the best credits around without question. But then you consider that against a project like Malaria Control.net or LHC@home that give some of the lowest credits around. I am totally for the BOINC devs trying to level the playing field. But it might be extremely difficult to take into account the SETI optimised app since it is done via third parties and not a stock app given out by the project.

The idea is that if a projects stock app runs on an Intel P3 for example and gives X credits, based on benchmarks, then that computer is able to go to different projects and be granted the same credits per hour. It shouldn't matter if the projects wu's take 1hr, 2hrs or 20hrs or 2000hrs, that P3 should get the same credits per hour no matter which project it does. Now if that same wu is crunched on an Intel P4 it should complete it more quickly but still be granted X credits. Now if that same wu is completed on a C2D it will be faster again and should still be granted X credits. What's the problem with this? The faster computers get more credit since they complete more work in the same period of time.

Now the issue comes up when projects optimise their stock app for the various instruction sets and are able to assign the best optimised stock app based on the style of CPU.

If this same project now optimises their stock app for SSE2, SSE3, etc and are able to assign these optimised apps accordingly then I would imagine the same credit for that wu should be granted. Which is X. This would mean that a new CPU utilising would get significantly more credits more hour that an old CPU - but where is the problem in that? It would mean that some projects would be granting more credits per hour than some other projects, which is a little tough for the other projects, but what the heck, if they were smart enough to optimise their apps then maybe they should as well.

I believe, the issue that is trying to be resolved is that across the various projects for stock unoptimised apps the same credits per hour are not being granted. I don't see a problem with the BOINC devs trying to overcome this.

Live long and BOINC!

Paul.
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Message 4570 - Posted: 30 Jul 2008, 23:43:40 UTC - in response to Message 4569.  
Last modified: 30 Jul 2008, 23:44:51 UTC

What is all the talk about SETI worrying about not giving enough credit....what a joke. An optimized SETI app gives one of the best credits around without question. But then you consider that against a project like Malaria Control.net or LHC@home that give some of the lowest credits around. I am totally for the BOINC devs trying to level the playing field. But it might be extremely difficult to take into account the SETI optimized app since it is done via third parties and not a stock app given out by the project.

The idea is that if a projects stock app runs on an Intel P3 for example and gives X credits, based on benchmarks, then that computer is able to go to different projects and be granted the same credits per hour. It shouldn't matter if the projects wu's take 1hr, 2hrs or 20hrs or 2000hrs, that P3 should get the same credits per hour no matter which project it does. Now if that same wu is crunched on an Intel P4 it should complete it more quickly but still be granted X credits. Now if that same wu is completed on a C2D it will be faster again and should still be granted X credits. What's the problem with this? The faster computers get more credit since they complete more work in the same period of time.

Now the issue comes up when projects optimize their stock app for the various instruction sets and are able to assign the best optimized stock app based on the style of CPU.

If this same project now optimizes their stock app for SSE2, SSE3, etc and are able to assign these optimized apps accordingly then I would imagine the same credit for that wu should be granted. Which is X. This would mean that a new CPU utilizing would get significantly more credits more hour that an old CPU - but where is the problem in that?

I believe, the issue that is trying to be resolved is that across the various projects for stock unoptimized apps the same credits per hour are not being granted. I don't see a problem with the BOINC devs trying to overcome this.

Live long and BOINC!

Paul.

The Optimized apps currently being use have to use the proper credit multiplier(the same as 5.27 uses), No exceptions. Optimized apps just allow the cpu to process the data more quickly than the stock app, If the project had enough money and staff, The optimized apps would be folded into the stock app, But this costs real money which is always in short supply. Right now the project operates on a shoe string and has mostly students and not much more than 1 or 2 paid staff and that's It. No current Seti app uses the Benchmark at all, Only Boinc uses the Benchmarks still.
12/21/2012? Bah Humbug!

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Message 4571 - Posted: 30 Jul 2008, 23:43:45 UTC - in response to Message 4567.  

Yes, and I would call you one of the few.


wow very nice. hhahahahahhahahahahaaa
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Message 4572 - Posted: 31 Jul 2008, 0:23:33 UTC - in response to Message 4571.  


Cappy if it smells like a troll...and feels like a troll....and looks like a troll....then it probably is a troll...Don't feed the trolls! hahaha!
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Message 4573 - Posted: 31 Jul 2008, 0:36:49 UTC - in response to Message 4572.  


Cappy if it smells like a troll...and feels like a troll....and looks like a troll....then it probably is a troll...Don't feed the trolls! hahaha!

Just because there is a disagreement does not make anyone in the discussion a troll.


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Message 4574 - Posted: 31 Jul 2008, 5:14:35 UTC - in response to Message 4573.  


Cappy if it smells like a troll...and feels like a troll....and looks like a troll....then it probably is a troll...Don't feed the trolls! hahaha!

Just because there is a disagreement does not make anyone in the discussion a troll.


Agreed. Would be nice if we could tone down the 'rant' a bit and discuss the options.
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Message 4575 - Posted: 31 Jul 2008, 5:36:04 UTC

Boinc is owned by Berkeley University or an employee I think, I don't know for sure of course. There is a thread there that is about a possible Credit Adjustment to Seti, For what It's worth at least.

http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=48296

And there is a post by Josef W. Segur(Volunteer developer, Volunteer tester) that mentions a cross project comparison to Seti and Eric Korpela(Forum moderator, Project administrator, Project developer, Project scientist) has posted a few times too.

http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=48296&nowrap=true#790209
12/21/2012? Bah Humbug!

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Message 4576 - Posted: 31 Jul 2008, 6:49:51 UTC - in response to Message 4567.  

Yes, and I would call you one of the few.


troll'in, troll'in, troll'in

keep them bait's a float'in

get the member's go'in

rawhide

I am really almost done with this crap... won't take much to get me to pull all my boxes, part em out and buy my wife something nice.

The credit police just can't stop......

It's the same thing over and over and over and over and over again and again and again.

Go to any project message board where the credit is .0000000001 more than seti, and you will find the same police saying the exact same things.

They have never got one project that I know of to raise credit, buy have cut a few off at the knees that gave too much. Now a new plan.... The Dr. Knowitall, and the credit police will force their idea of Boinc down your throat like it or not........

nice

If this happens.....I'll be gone... not to be found..... ever....

Just amazing what a very vocal minority can do, if they just keep pounding away.
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Message 4577 - Posted: 31 Jul 2008, 9:14:29 UTC - in response to Message 4574.  


Cappy if it smells like a troll...and feels like a troll....and looks like a troll....then it probably is a troll...Don't feed the trolls! hahaha!

Just because there is a disagreement does not make anyone in the discussion a troll.


Agreed. Would be nice if we could tone down the 'rant' a bit and discuss the options.


THERE is no options with D.A.'s plan, if he when he writes it into the code

thats it, HE IS IN CONTROKL OF THE CREDIT HANDED OUT ON EVERY PROJECT!

not just SETI every project that uses BOINC as its BASE. the project admins

for said project will no longer be in control of their credit system,

will no longer be able to reward THEIR VOLUNTEERS for work done. the

DICTATORSHIP will control what ya get and how ya get it and if they want

just KEEP LOWERING the credit till its GONE all together. the CREDIT SYSTEM

hassnt taken away SETI's VOLUNTEERS, SETI has PUSHED them out the door

and dont even know it, check my stats for SETI,, havent realy crunched

it in a year and a half maybe longer. prolly never will again, with

people like this running it why would ya, they dont care about you, you are

FREE LABOR and nothing more to them, if you did mean something to them

CREDIT WOULD BE THE LAST THING ON THEIR MINDS THE ONLY THING YOU GET BACK

from them, lol hell you dont even know if anything was done last month for them

do ya,,, whens the LAST time you seen a report??? was anything found???

only thing they can say is YOU GETTING TO MUCH CREDIT FOR VOLUINTEERING YOUR

TIME AND MONEY TO US .. lol how frakked up does that sound lol :P :P

im DONE made my point and they know it thats why o got that big what was it

5 word comeback lol.

laterz peoples and DO NOT LET THIS DICTATORSHIP TAKE OVER.

this is a DC COMMUNITY not IRAQ !!!!!

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