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Message 5335 - Posted: 7 Oct 2008, 7:54:43 UTC
Last modified: 7 Oct 2008, 7:56:59 UTC

It's gotten to a point for me where there is no point wasting my time on this project if the project admins allow a number of individuals to use their own optimised apps.

I love this project and i work my ass of with my 10 crunchers to do the work but with people earning up to and over a million credits a day for little or no effort is a joke.

Granted those that know how to do these apps are very smart people and my hat goes of to you but i gotta say you people stink and the admins should be ashamed of themselves for allowing it to happen.

Feel free to abuse me call me names or whatever else you can come up i don't much care. I will return to my favourite project if and when there is a level playing field.
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Message 5336 - Posted: 7 Oct 2008, 8:27:00 UTC

My hat off to you, Zed, for wasting so much precious cpu time and energy! Dont get me wrong, but MW staff knows about it for half a year now!

If you're reffering to Milksop at try or Crunch3r: They just want to make people aware of the situation here. Milksop at try even created this TEAMLESS account just to show the rest of the crunchers:

Look whats possible with MINIMUM effort!

And they are fine, if project admins would delete their credits - as long as they would finally put one or two days work in their highly inefficient code!

So dont be angry with those crunchers, but critize the staff and send a friend request to Milksop at try! ;)

Just my 2 eurocents...
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Message 5337 - Posted: 7 Oct 2008, 8:28:24 UTC - in response to Message 5335.  

It's gotten to a point for me where there is no point wasting my time on this project if the project admins allow a number of individuals to use their own optimised apps.

I love this project and i work my ass of with my 10 crunchers to do the work but with people earning up to and over a million credits a day for little or no effort is a joke.

Granted those that know how to do these apps are very smart people and my hat goes of to you but i gotta say you people stink and the admins should be ashamed of themselves for allowing it to happen.

Feel free to abuse me call me names or whatever else you can come up i don't much care. I will return to my favourite project if and when there is a level playing field.


Interesting, I have no problem with your first 2 paragraphs, but why did you have to spoil it but being rude to people ("you people stink") ?

Just so it's clear, I am not defending anyone here. I also feel it would be nice for optimised apps to be available to all, but then why stop there? Why should I be limited to only a few hosts, most of which are slow. Your computers are hidden, but you have over 6 mil credits on milkyway alone in 1 year of crunching, plus another few mil on others. I have a total credit of just over 420K. That means you have far more crunching power than me. Shouldn't you share some of that with me? Maybe you should attach some of them to my account. ;)

I hope my real point is coming across properly - some crunchers have more than others - some have more hosts, better hosts, better programming skills, etc. As long as valid science is being done, lets not have unpleasantness about other people's advantages. By all means post that you're unhappy and/or or leaving and/or setting No New Work, but please, lets respect the person. I, for example, reduced my resource share here when things weren't going the way I like it, but I'm still here.

Feel free to abuse me call me names or whatever else you can come up i don't much care.

Most of what you said was simply expressing your point of view, and I hope the others will overlook your insult a being in 'the heat of the moment'.

I sincerely hope that others will not rise to the bait. Then another thread will go down in flames.

Regards
Rod
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Message 5338 - Posted: 7 Oct 2008, 9:38:30 UTC - in response to Message 5335.  

Granted those that know how to do these apps are very smart people and my hat goes of to you but i gotta say you people stink and the admins should be ashamed of themselves for allowing it to happen.

Quite close. You are right, the project should be ashamed that something like this can happen, but as [B^S] BOINC-SG already said, they should be ashamed of the app they put out to the public.

Have you read my profile? It is not credits what matters for us. Actually this was the reason to create a new teamless account. I have of course also a private account I'm continuing to crunch for. But now almost no MW anymore.
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Message 5339 - Posted: 7 Oct 2008, 11:25:54 UTC

Science on a string cannot support optimized code. It doesn't take a wizard to figure out the limitations of the project servers given the fact that the WU's duration was increased by a factor of 10 to reduce overload on the MW hardware. Imagine optimized code fielded to all users. The project would be toast.

If the mods and admins sound a little overwhelmed, remember the story of the emperors new clothes.

Keep those kilowatts pushing this overloaded SUV. Concerned about mileage? You can always vote with your feet.

Regards-Voltron
Vcore...Vcore...gotta make it sweat to score.
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Message 5341 - Posted: 7 Oct 2008, 13:04:11 UTC - in response to Message 5339.  
Last modified: 7 Oct 2008, 13:04:47 UTC

Science on a string cannot support optimized code. It doesn't take a wizard to figure out the limitations of the project servers given the fact that the WU's duration was increased by a factor of 10 to reduce overload on the MW hardware. Imagine optimized code fielded to all users. The project would be toast.

If the mods and admins sound a little overwhelmed, remember the story of the emperors new clothes.

Keep those kilowatts pushing this overloaded SUV. Concerned about mileage? You can always vote with your feet.

Regards-Voltron

Maybe I didn't get all of your statement (English is not my native language), but I think it is somehow the other way around.
The Boinc platform is ideal for a low funded project, just because you can get all that crucnhing power almost for free (you have some server costs). In fact, the ratio of processing power per dollar raises significantly if they put out a reasonable performing application. When they are concerned about the precision of the results, they can easily afford to increase the length of the WU with a better app (for instance the length of a WU depends crucially on the chosen precision of the numerical integrations done by the MW app, this is just a parameter in the WUs, no change of the app would be required).

Actually, we have done virtually no "real optimization". That's the reason I've put optimization into quotation marks in the profile. All we have done is to clean up the code a bit. To say it again, it is still normal C code with no handtuning involved.

And concerning the emperors new clothes, who's the emperor? The MW project? Then you are right of course!

I think, if one could actually calculate WUs that are worth 1.6 million points a day with just 5 Quads (that would be phase II), the picture of the overloaded SUV doesn't hold. The MW project could have calculated all their stuff inhouse, with our processing power helping other projects, that may not waste it so much.

But there are further bad examples we may turn to, if we have done our mission here (if someone from Ramsey@home is reading this, be warned).
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Message 5345 - Posted: 7 Oct 2008, 20:33:28 UTC

This is madness...
If those xx times faster apps are producing fine results, what shouldnt be so hard to check (project staff anyone??) then get this code and make it the default application - fast! We are waisting time & science every second.

And no, I dont want to make 1 million credits a day, if that may sound so, if the new app takes only 10% of the actual time and i get 10% of the actual credit - perfect.

So come on do something about it or ill leave be the weekend ( not that it matters anyway with people like Milksop at try throwing out the WUs like waterdrops down the Niagarafalls :P )
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Message 5351 - Posted: 8 Oct 2008, 1:27:59 UTC - in response to Message 5345.  

This is madness...
If those xx times faster apps are producing fine results, what shouldnt be so hard to check (project staff anyone??) then get this code and make it the default application - fast! We are waisting time & science every second.

And no, I dont want to make 1 million credits a day, if that may sound so, if the new app takes only 10% of the actual time and i get 10% of the actual credit - perfect.

So come on do something about it or ill leave be the weekend ( not that it matters anyway with people like Milksop at try throwing out the WUs like waterdrops down the Niagarafalls :P )


The server and network infrastructure need to be able to handle the additional load. This is not me trying to make excuses, it is just reality. If the load causes the server to crash and/or the work generator can't keep up and/or people use up all of their daily quota, there'd just be more bellyaching. It needs to be done right, but not necessarily "right now"...
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Message 5352 - Posted: 8 Oct 2008, 1:42:01 UTC

I think I said that. They don't have the horsepower we do.

Regards-V0ltron
Vcore...Vcore...gotta make it sweat to score.
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Message 5357 - Posted: 8 Oct 2008, 2:28:44 UTC

I just about stopped myself a couple months ago, I've run 2 wu's this month, and 4 last. I have been waiting to see what happened when the new code comes out.
Doesn't expecting the unexpected make the unexpected the expected?
If it makes sense, DON'T do it.
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Message 5360 - Posted: 8 Oct 2008, 6:12:11 UTC - in response to Message 5351.  



The server and network infrastructure need to be able to handle the additional load. This is not me trying to make excuses, it is just reality. If the load causes the server to crash and/or the work generator can't keep up and/or people use up all of their daily quota, there'd just be more bellyaching. It needs to be done right, but not necessarily "right now"...


What would be so bad if ppl reach daily quota? Its not like MW is the only project out there. About the server load, youve got a point there, still its not an argument to not make the application more effective. When we only had the very short WUs, things were messy, agree. If a better code would run 10x faster (or even more), we would be in server trouble again, yes. But keep in mind, that we would do science also 10 times faster ! There are workarounds, like dont create so much work (might not be the best solutiuon for us crunchers) or simply lower the credits given, so MW isnt on top of the BOINC projects anymore, that would drive some ppl off that are only here for the credits. Before someone brings up the point, that by this MW would decrease their computing power - this aint true when u keep in mind, that a new application would be 10x faster (i keep using 10x faster, I dont know how much it could be tho, just a guess when looking at some of the guys profiles running self coded apps).
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Message 5369 - Posted: 8 Oct 2008, 15:56:21 UTC - in response to Message 5360.  



The server and network infrastructure need to be able to handle the additional load. This is not me trying to make excuses, it is just reality. If the load causes the server to crash and/or the work generator can't keep up and/or people use up all of their daily quota, there'd just be more bellyaching. It needs to be done right, but not necessarily "right now"...


What would be so bad if ppl reach daily quota? Its not like MW is the only project out there.


That is a true statement, but it does not work that way in real life. People will get mad that the limit is "so low". Terms like "ridiculous" will be thrown about. Threads like "I've had enough TOO!!!" will be created, etc, etc, etc...

About the server load, youve got a point there, still its not an argument to not make the application more effective.


Never said that it was "an argument to not make the application more effective." What I am saying is that it is a reason to not bend to the complaints of "it's not fair, release it NOW!!!!!!!". There seems to be a lot of "I WANT IT AND I WANT IT NOW" coming from people when it comes to this. The logical reason for this is people see the big numbers and they want to post big numbers too.

What I think people need to understand is that optimized code is no different than overclocking or adding more computers as far as they are concerned. Yes, it helps the science get done quicker, but it does not mean that someone else is "cheating". If it does, then I suppose you could argue that my overclocked system is "cheating", or that people who have 2 systems compared to my single system are "cheating", or that people that have 20 systems compared to the hypothetical 2 systems are "cheating".

As a software developer who understands SDLC (Systems Development Life Cycle) and other Project Management principles, doing this in a week is not appropriate. It does not matter if one feels that the project "had time before now to take action", considering now is when this information has been made public. A reasonable period of time should be alloted to the project team starting from now, not 6 months ago. What is "a reasonable period of time"? Personally, I consider that as about 4-6 weeks. If people demand it sooner, then the angst directed against the project should at least be shared with those who have worked on the code efficiency improvements who are acting as though they are not willing to share the info with the project.

Someone else said that this is a volunteer effort. Yes, perhaps Dave and Travis should learn this on their own, but if they are to learn it on their own, then the people who are more knowledgable should stop poking at them with the "we're smarter than you" type of comments.

One other thing to bear in mind is that this week and the next 2 weeks will be midterm time for most colleges and universities here in the United States. This is an alpha-level project, not production. As such, their focus should properly be on preparing for their midterms and not this project, unless this project is part of a midterm or other honors society program or internship.

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Message 5375 - Posted: 8 Oct 2008, 17:24:13 UTC - in response to Message 5369.  



Someone else said that this is a volunteer effort. Yes, perhaps Dave and Travis should learn this on their own, but if they are to learn it on their own, then the people who are more knowledgable should stop poking at them with the "we're smarter than you" type of comments.



I agree here, what I (and I think many others) would like to see, is a constructive enviroment where the project devs and the guys that have the knowledge and time to optimize the code work together and get this problem over.

About the cheating/overclocking/high credit thing: I disagree. There are people out running the WUs 10x..50x times faster then a normal CPU from the same type. You think you can gain a 50x speedup with overclocking? not even close to 10x. And it definetly spoils the fun for a lot of guys who like to check their credits and positions in the stats. This should be stopped as soon as possible, no matter where we are going with a new application. Personally, It doesnt really bother me, but I can understand why there are ppl out that that are offended by that, and I think they have a good reason to be. Also, up to here, we havent any confirmation if those homebrew apps return valid results, if not, it would ofc disqualify them straight away.

Point is: I dont see where the problem right now is? There is a lot of talks going on from both sides for a long time now, but where does it hang? Are those guys with their fast applications even interested in making their apps public (and by that loosing their credithorses)? Is the project interested in using this code? I think ive read in some older thread, that the focus is not on speeding up the current app, cuz there is a new on the way anyway? (but dont quote me on that, might remember wrong). Maybe if both sides could just simply state what they want and would be willing to do (and without stupid "A 2 year old child could do this and that"), we might have something to start, or at least know where we stand and what to expect.
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Message 5380 - Posted: 8 Oct 2008, 20:40:46 UTC - in response to Message 5375.  



Someone else said that this is a volunteer effort. Yes, perhaps Dave and Travis should learn this on their own, but if they are to learn it on their own, then the people who are more knowledgable should stop poking at them with the "we're smarter than you" type of comments.



I agree here, what I (and I think many others) would like to see, is a constructive enviroment where the project devs and the guys that have the knowledge and time to optimize the code work together and get this problem over.


Glad to agree...


About the cheating/overclocking/high credit thing: I disagree. There are people out running the WUs 10x..50x times faster then a normal CPU from the same type. You think you can gain a 50x speedup with overclocking? not even close to 10x. And it definetly spoils the fun for a lot of guys who like to check their credits and positions in the stats. This should be stopped as soon as possible, no matter where we are going with a new application. Personally, It doesnt really bother me, but I can understand why there are ppl out that that are offended by that, and I think they have a good reason to be.


So, if I had the money to buy 100 Core 2 Extreme QX9770 systems, but hid them so you wouldn't be able to see how many systems I had, I would be "cheating" because I have a higher RAC as compared to you?

Like I said, people need to stop confusing the improvements made by brain power as "cheating" but the improvements made by "bank account power" are pefectly fine. I'd argue that improvements made by brain power are BETTER than those improvements that are purchased.

This whole situation was started by a declaration of "cheating" and things being "unfair". Travis acted very poorly originally by echoing the sentiments of participants posting here on the message boards that what was being done was "cheating". As I was trying to get across to Milksop, that sentiment was apparently fueled by an alleged lack of disclosure about what the changes were that Crunch3r had made to cause that kind of performance increase. That's why I'm trying to get them to understand that being coy and holding back information can indeed cause their position to be seen as one with the potential for dishonesty, even if they are not doing anything wrong / dishonest.


Also, up to here, we havent any confirmation if those homebrew apps return valid results, if not, it would ofc disqualify them straight away.


There is a post from Travis somewhere here on the boards stating that the output was ok. That was what prompted the change in the wording of the announcement on the front page to what it is today...a less accusatory tone.

Point is: I dont see where the problem right now is? There is a lot of talks going on from both sides for a long time now, but where does it hang? Are those guys with their fast applications even interested in making their apps public (and by that loosing their credithorses)? Is the project interested in using this code? I think ive read in some older thread, that the focus is not on speeding up the current app, cuz there is a new on the way anyway? (but dont quote me on that, might remember wrong). Maybe if both sides could just simply state what they want and would be willing to do (and without stupid "A 2 year old child could do this and that"), we might have something to start, or at least know where we stand and what to expect.


Agreed. There have been wrongs on both sides...
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Message 5382 - Posted: 8 Oct 2008, 21:55:55 UTC

I decided early this morning to move along. The beast has bit cs.rpi. MW is alpha and they are learning a lot from the volunteers. All evidence indicates underpowered hardware, fragmented software control, and a resource shortfall are the immediate lessons.

See my earlier post for my comments on the playing field. "Draining my Q's".

I have morphed and gone overseas.


Regards-Voltron
Vcore...Vcore...gotta make it sweat to score.
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Message 5383 - Posted: 8 Oct 2008, 23:02:06 UTC - in response to Message 5336.  
Last modified: 8 Oct 2008, 23:07:55 UTC

as long as they would finally put one or two days work in their highly inefficient code!

I think lot of things have already being said and debated!!! I don't want to play the troll, I don't want to start another argueing but...

I'm not a coder or developper, just System Engineer with some background. So, MilkyWay, inefficient code?!?!!

-- MilkyWay has never blocked my CPUs, nor my systems...
-- MilkyWay reports correctly percentage done, cpu perf and cpu efficiency...
-- MilkyWay terminates WUs correctly, and gives credits for that...
-- MilkyWay doesn't force Boinc's manager to goes into "running high priority" because of stupid deadlines...
-- MilkyWay respects Boinc's parameters for memory occupation, cpu occupation, or not staying into memory...
-- MilkyWay works as well on different systems, different platforms...

So, what else? What more? Doesn't it describe what a Boinc's project should be? Science projects running silently in the background of your computer without intervention of the user and gaining credit for it.

Have you spend a few minutes with the new projects which recently appears? Have you share your cpu time to these brand new projects? Have you observed (through BoincView for instance) what happend to your CPU and other projects being enslaved and put away by stupid coding?

As I don't want to be rude, and because I want to apply the kind of respect I would like to see in these very ugly, unprepared but unleashed projects, I won't compare and won't throw some names!

I'm glad that they released their code. I'm confident that competent users and time donators will help and bring something optimized for everyone participating. Everyone.

If MilkyWay was that much inefficient, for a Beta project, the ugly coded projects that I have in mind should be closed right know and their "creators" should be banned from Boinc.

Friendly yours.
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Message 5384 - Posted: 8 Oct 2008, 23:25:59 UTC - in response to Message 5375.  

Point is: I dont see where the problem right now is? There is a lot of talks going on from both sides for a long time now, but where does it hang? Are those guys with their fast applications even interested in making their apps public (and by that loosing their credithorses)? Is the project interested in using this code? I think ive read in some older thread, that the focus is not on speeding up the current app, cuz there is a new on the way anyway? (but dont quote me on that, might remember wrong). Maybe if both sides could just simply state what they want and would be willing to do (and without stupid "A 2 year old child could do this and that"), we might have something to start, or at least know where we stand and what to expect.

If you want to know what we want, just look in our profile.

The problem is that the project is not acting.
They were informed by Crunch3r long ago that huge gains are possible but Travis basically told him that it would be impossible because the app just adds up some numbers in a loop. So obviously he has no idea where the code spends all the time. Especially that innermost loop is coded extremely bad. I already said here in the forum, which single line of code (out of 16) is the only useful one in the qgaus function forming the innermost loop. Together with the bugfix detailed in the code discussion forum these two minor changes (some changed declarations and commenting out some lines, takes 10 minutes max) will speed up the application a factor of 4 to 5. That would be a beginning, don't you think?

PS:
I also said here, that with a cleanly rewritten app speedups of more than factor 100 should be easily doable.
In fact, Crunch3r just had another look to the code and arrived now at a speedup of about 180 compared to the official Windows app. He also told me, with some more effort put into it, one could even reach a factor of 1000 that means 20 seconds or so for a WU now giving 260 credits. Now, inefficiency should get a new definition.
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Message 5385 - Posted: 9 Oct 2008, 0:48:56 UTC - in response to Message 5383.  


-- MilkyWay doesn't force Boinc's manager to goes into "running high priority" because of stupid deadlines...


I have a 3-day cache. MW has a 3-day deadline. If I have other work on the system and I get some work from here, the version of BOINC that I use (5.8.16) does indeed immediately go into "Earliest Deadline First" (now called "high priority") because of my cache level and my usage patterns / resource allocations. If I do not have work on my system and I get a 3-day download from here, I cannot request work from another project, which still means I'm in EDF...

Perhaps you have a lower cache setting or do not shut off your computer at night or don't shut down BOINC while you're playing Civilization 4...so I realize that what you're saying is "right" from your perspective, but it is not 100% right for everyone...

IMO, YMMV, etc, etc, etc...
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Message 5386 - Posted: 9 Oct 2008, 1:02:26 UTC - in response to Message 5384.  
Last modified: 9 Oct 2008, 1:06:19 UTC

Together with the bugfix detailed in the code discussion forum these two minor changes (some changed declarations and commenting out some lines, takes 10 minutes max) will speed up the application a factor of 4 to 5. That would be a beginning, don't you think?


As an application developer that is geared towards end-user GUI interfacing, I can tell you that rapid multiple version changes are NIGHTMARES to handle from a Project Management standpoint, as well as they have the tendency to majorly irritate the end users. The proper way is to bundle smaller incremental updates into a larger update. The only exeception to that is if a critical bug has been found. What you have apparently found is a lot of wasteful code that I would deem as "important", but I don't think it can be classified as "critical".

Yes, I do understand that there is no GUI, but rapid-fire versions tend to also lack good QC / QA testing, especially if you are short-staffed.

I still think you should work with them rather than hold back. I don't quite understand your "incentive" for holding back... If you give them one or two lines and they don't try it, how is it different from giving them 100 lines and they don't try it? They have said that they basically inherited the code. As I pointed out before, if you are given code and are told that it works, most of the time you're not going to go over it with a fine-tooth comb looking for efficiency improvements right away... You're going to interface that lib / dll / whatever and continue on with the other portions that you know are not complete and then perhaps come back to look at efficiency...
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Message 5408 - Posted: 9 Oct 2008, 15:37:00 UTC - in response to Message 5386.  

I still think you should work with them rather than hold back. I don't quite understand your "incentive" for holding back... If you give them one or two lines and they don't try it, how is it different from giving them 100 lines and they don't try it? They have said that they basically inherited the code. As I pointed out before, if you are given code and are told that it works, most of the time you're not going to go over it with a fine-tooth comb looking for efficiency improvements right away...



What I find most amusing in all of this Milksop at try had someone help HIM in rewriting the code. Hypocrite!!!

Seems to me he is incapable of actually helping MW@home, other than whining and ranting.

THATS MY TWO F-ING BITS. SO S*** ALREADY, OR GET OFF THE POT!

I'll still be crunching this so called waste of power.

Milksop at try, you truly are a Milksop! Perhaps more of a Mollycoddle than a Milksop...

SUE ME. ;)



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Message boards : Number crunching : I've had enough also

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