Heh Milksop I think you and your mate Crunch3r have made your point with the fact the app is ineffective and that your you beaut computer skills are so much better than everyone elses. Why not go somewhere else and destroy another project and stop making a mockery of this one .

@ Travis i hope you intend to cancel and delete their accounts as this is getting way beyond abuse and has gone on for far to long.

Yeah ! ... wot Zed said !

hahah

Zed..Kill boy ! kill ...

Wow. Another incredibly helpful flame on the message board.

Is it jealousy? Or have you simply been too lazy to read and think about what's going on here?

Anyway, I'm glad the project staff is now working on the code inefficiencies. *thumbsup*

By the way, I'd like to encourage the project staff to leave their current and future code accessible to the community. It's simply the right thing to do. I don't even want to think about how "efficiently" other projects with hidden code found a way to simply raise my energy bills without doing much science in the first place.

Heh Milksop I think you and your mate Crunch3r have made your point with the fact the app is ineffective and that your you beaut computer skills are so much better than everyone elses. Why not go somewhere else and destroy another project and stop making a mockery of this one.

Here in Germany we have a lot of complaints about the lack of reading comprehension of pupils and students. Now I know this appears to be a general problem all over the world ;)

Just read my profile and all my other posts here in the forum and maybe you will understand what is going on. How did I destroy this project? If all works out well, I will be quite a help to this project, isn't it? Is it my fault that the code of the official app is written that bad that it wastes 99% of your computing resources? Who is responsible for the mockery in the first place?
I still think the project needs some kind of pressure to implement improvements to the app. After all, they know about the inefficiencies for months now. Do you think something would change without the public interest created by that milksop account?

Btw., Crunch3r is not my mate. In fact, we have quite different views of some things. This includes the policy on the widespread personal use of such an application vastly faster than the official one. If I would want it, I could make about 2 million credits a day for my personal account and my team, but I don't do it. Just ask yourself why I don't do it!
But as a matter of fact, Crunch3r was the first one to look at the source code and creating a much faster version than the official one. With my references to him I only give credit where credit is due, even I've never seen his code. I think my skills as a programmer are definately below average, as admitted in my profile. After all, I haven't done any programming for some years before this.

I agree with the comment made by anotherone.

Flames are very non productive, especially as the Project Admin are looking at the code inefficiencies Milksop, and others, are pointing out to them.

Hopefully, when some time has passed a new fast client will be released for general project use, and the credit given adjusted to compensate for the faster client.

The drop in credit given for the current stock client will, hopefully, encourage normal crunchers to move to the new client. All this will benefit the project through increased science productivity.

Maybe you guys could go over and checkout the application at Orbit. The WU's there take 200-1000 hours to complete depending on the computer.

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I agree with the comment made by anotherone.

Flames are very non productive, especially as the Project Admin are looking at the code inefficiencies Milksop, and others, are pointing out to them.

Really you think that was a flame ???

I would think that after 10 days or more "of pointing it out" to the project admins that the point has been made and should cease. I doubt that even the project admins are that stupid they can't comprehend what is happening. And to blatantly abuse the project and slap every other legitimate cruncher in the face for not having the smarts to play with the code for better faster results. I'm all for you helping out the project to improve it's efficiency. But you need to find another way to do so without adding a million creds a day to your over inflated ego.

Yes i've read your profile and i don't buy it.

Why don't u go to Orbit as the last post suggests of even CPDN or Einstein for improving the speed and efficiency on their ridiculously long wu's ?

But you need to find another way to do so without adding a million creds a day to your over inflated ego.

Yes i've read your profile and i don't buy it.

Well, looking at your credit and RAC values here, I don't "buy it" that you have the concerns of everyone else at heart. I think you're jealous that you are soon looking at dropping out of the top 20 participants by RAC and have already been pushed out of the top 5 by total credit. The problem is, in theory, once improvements are made in the app, you're going to have the same advantage with the number of hosts or their respective processing power as you have over all of the rest of us as it is today.

I disagree with their methods and think that they should've been more diplomatic, but that doesn't mean that I'm blind to your jealousy... Just let it go. It will be ok...

Well, looking at your credit and RAC values here, I don't "buy it" that you have the concerns of everyone else at heart. I think you're jealous that you are soon looking at dropping out of the top 20 participants by RAC and have already been pushed out of the top 5 by total credit. The problem is, in theory, once improvements are made in the app, you're going to have the same advantage with the number of hosts or their respective processing power as you have over all of the rest of us as it is today.

That RAC you speak of was up near 50k by pure hard work and a lot of $$$ on my part but that was my choice, and i was very happy to donate all my cpu cycles to this project and yes the credits are very attractive ... but if it was all about credits i would still be here getting my 50k a day from my 10 machines.

What i do object to and i'll say it AGAIN is the blatant abuse/cheating call it what you like that certain people have a gargantuan advantage over the rest. Did you see me complain when a member of L'AF put on an enormous lead over everyone else ? NO! Did i complain when a member who started the 1st i've had enough thread (which also brought up this very issue but about someone else) shot past me leaving me coughing his dust ? No! I don't and didn't believe that these people were abusing the system.

If i cared about my ranking i'd still be there giving my all to try and fight for my position. And i will be back when its a level playing field and don't give me that crap about how much of an advantage i have over a lot of others. i chose to buy all that i have, not some how cheat my way into making 70+ hosts out of 7 machines, theres a big difference. If Milksop had control over 70+ machines from a business or a university we probably wouldn't be having this discussion but then again he would probably still cheat and make 70 machines into 700.

just a couple of my observations, for what there are worth

1. optimized app - could a milkyway@home beta site not be setup to develop an optimized app - other BOINC projects have 2 projects - extra time and resource required but admin/scientist time is being used to reply to threads on the forums!. A test or beta development site removes the points/credit/cheating/jealously issues - limit the test/beta site to the chosen few who can help improve the code and other volunteers who will know and accept the 'rules' for the beta/test project ... A single project will different flavors of app/s will only cause issue/s as we can see - keep them apart

2. remind yourself you are a volunteer to this project - you don't like what's happening and/or the direction it is taking the go else where, plenty other BOINC projects

That RAC you speak of was up near 50k by pure hard work and a lot of $$$ on my part but that was my choice,

...

What i do object to and i'll say it AGAIN is the blatant abuse/cheating

...

I don't and didn't believe that these people were abusing the system.

...

i chose to buy all that i have, not some how cheat my way into making 70+ hosts out of 7 machines, theres a big difference. If Milksop had control over 70+ machines from a business or a university we probably wouldn't be having this discussion but then again he would probably still cheat and make 70 machines into 700.

All of that absolutely screams jealousy. As I had pointed out before, if I have 10 times the number of machines as someone else, but I have them hidden, how in the world can you possibly know?

As long as the results are numerically the same, then you folks that are calling this "cheating" need to comprehend that code improvements are essentially the same as adding additional computers. In fact, the code improvements could (appear to be in this case) make it to where there are significant energy savings that will benefit not only you, but every one of us due to decreased energy demand for the same work being processed.

One other thing to keep in mind is that it likely cost time and money to learn how to performance tune applications. If any of the people involved have a college degree, then, at least here in the United States, that typically costs a good bit of money.

As I said, I don't like the manner in which they did what they did, but it is not "cheating". I have the source code base that they started from myself, and if I was motivated enough and had enough time, I could try to make improvements myself. This is the idea behind Open Source. The project has stated that they are going to make the new code available to everyone as well. None of this is "cheating".

I would think that after 10 days or more "of pointing it out" to the project admins that the point has been made and should cease. I doubt that even the project admins are that stupid they can't comprehend what is happening. And to blatantly abuse the project and slap every other legitimate cruncher in the face for not having the smarts to play with the code for better faster results. I'm all for you helping out the project to improve it's efficiency. But you need to find another way to do so without adding a million creds a day to your over inflated ego.

Yes i've read your profile and i don't buy it.

As you obviously didn't understand what I posted here some times already, I will explain it to you again.

The fact that the MW app in its current state is extremely inefficient was pointed out already half a year ago. Nothing happened. So it appears the project needs a little bit more than just pointing to this fact. For the reasons ask the MW project. We simply think the current state is unacceptable and decided to move something.

To solve this situation we took a two-pronged approach. We are pointing to the inefficiencies in no unclear terms and also demonstrate the gains possible with a little bit of tuning to get this fact more public. It was clear there will be some opposition from credit oriented crunchers. But the idea is that you communicate your resentment to the MW project. To support this, we have chosen to create a new account for this purpose. The Milksop account is not our personal account. We are still continuing to crunch for our personal accounts. So your criticism that the credits are adding to our ego is quite laughable, we are not identifying ourselves with this account. As already said we could have done this also with our personal accounts and for our team. But we have chosen not to do this for the reasons of fairness and a leveled playing field.

There is no more I could do than to simply say the truth about our motivation. If you buy that or not, is not our problem.

could a milkyway@home beta site not be setup to develop an optimized app - other BOINC projects have 2 projects - extra time and resource required but admin/scientist time is being used to reply to threads on the forums!. A test or beta development site removes the points/credit/cheating/jealously issues - limit the test/beta site to the chosen few who can help improve the code and other volunteers who will know and accept the 'rules' for the beta/test project ... A single project will different flavors of app/s will only cause issue/s as we can see - keep them apart

I'm not Barack Obama, but I support this message.

It would be far easier the improvements described in the code discussion forum get implemented and rolled out as the standard app by this project. It would end the whole discussion quite fast ;)

It would be far easier the improvements described in the code discussion forum get implemented and rolled out as the standard app by this project. It would end the whole discussion quite fast ;)

Milksop at try, I am amazed how on earth are you allowed to continue to post messages that are hostile and insulting. In essence you have hijacked the project and are demanding that the management implement your optimized code. You might well be good at coding and you might well be right, but is this the right way of doing it? I do not believe that you are entitled to your claim of having made so many millions of points and made number one in the world. You might well be competing against yourself for we are not in th same playing field and you are not playing the game fair. By your own admission you created a so called better code that you are not prepared to share with us, therefore you are not entitled to claim the points you earned and if you were a fair man, you would ask Milkyway to cancel your points to give those volunteers who have not got the same acedemic qualifications to create their own code a feeling of personal gratification and a feeling of achievemnet. You have denied those people that chance. Back off and discuss your findings directly with the management of MIlkyway, work with them instead against them...Give us a fair go.

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It would be far easier the improvements described in the code discussion forum get implemented and rolled out as the standard app by this project. It would end the whole discussion quite fast ;)

Milksop at try, I am amazed how on earth are you allowed to continue to post messages that are hostile and insulting. In essence you have hijacked the project and are demanding that the management implement your optimized code. You might well be good at coding and you might well be right, but is this the right way of doing it? I do not believe that you are entitled to your claim of having made so many millions of points and made number one in the world. You might well be competing against yourself for we are not in th same playing field and you are not playing the game fair. By your own admission you created a so called better code that you are not prepared to share with us, therefore you are not entitled to claim the points you earned and if you were a fair man, you would ask Milkyway to cancel your points to give those volunteers who have not got the same acedemic qualifications to create their own code a feeling of personal gratification and a feeling of achievemnet. You have denied those people that chance. Back off and discuss your findings directly with the management of MIlkyway, work with them instead against them...Give us a fair go.

Evil Tenobi - I think what you are suggesting is already going on here, and has for some little time.

I appreciate you are trying to get a balance here, and that Milksop has been OTT in pushing the code improvement agenda. But, it would be useful to point people to this forum and thread.

It would be far easier the improvements described in the code discussion forum get implemented and rolled out as the standard app by this project. It would end the whole discussion quite fast ;)

Milksop at try, I am amazed how on earth are you allowed to continue to post messages that are hostile and insulting. In essence you have hijacked the project and are demanding that the management implement your optimized code. You might well be good at coding and you might well be right, but is this the right way of doing it? I do not believe that you are entitled to your claim of having made so many millions of points and made number one in the world. You might well be competing against yourself for we are not in th same playing field and you are not playing the game fair. By your own admission you created a so called better code that you are not prepared to share with us, therefore you are not entitled to claim the points you earned and if you were a fair man, you would ask Milkyway to cancel your points to give those volunteers who have not got the same acedemic qualifications to create their own code a feeling of personal gratification and a feeling of achievemnet. You have denied those people that chance. Back off and discuss your findings directly with the management of MIlkyway, work with them instead against them...Give us a fair go.

How was this hostile and insulting?

Concerning the points you raised, that's simply not true.
We never demanded that the project implements our code, in fact quite the opposite. We demand that the project implements major improvements, and we are willing to give suggestions for that and have done so already (just look in the code discussion forum for suggestions to speed up the application by a factor of ~50). We are open to discuss the issue with the project staff. I have given my email to them for this purpose, but until now I got no response.

I am not a good coder, I said that already quite some times. There are definitely better ones out there. I also don't have an academic qualification that somehow magically enables me to write better code (I actually have an acedemic title, but it has nothing to do with computer or programming stuff). But even if I had, it has nothing to do with the issue here.

And why would it give you "a feeling of personal gratification and a feeling of achievement" if MW decides to nullify the credits on the Milksop account? Somehow that's beyond me. What have you achieved then?
You should pressure the MW staff to implement the improvements suggested by us to the official app. The day that happens, the Milksop account will be a dead one.

Edit:
I just noted, that zed, veebee and Evil Tenobi are all from the Cruncher Junkies team. Is it your team philosophy to waste your CPU cycles or what? Why do you oppose to pressure the MW staff to get the things done? Milksop doesn't belong to a team, it doesn't distort the team statistics, so why are you having so strong objections against our actions? I would understand it, if we would do it with our personal accounts and for our team. But now?

Evil Tenobi - I think what you are suggesting is already going on here, and has for some little time.

I appreciate you are trying to get a balance here, and that Milksop has been OTT in pushing the code improvement agenda. But, it would be useful to point people to this forum and thread.

Additionally, people would do well to keep in mind that Open Source does not require distribution of any improvements made. It is encouraged, but an encouragement is very different from a requirement.

If one were to continue the argument that Evil Tenobi put forth, that a "fair man" would ask that the points be cancelled because the rest of us do not have "the same academic qualifications" to create our own code, then another logical conclusion would be that those of us, like myself, who are poor and cannot afford to buy new computers should also be able to demand that those of you who have higher amounts of computers (and thus higher credit scores and/or RAC values) should ask that your points be reduced and/or cancelled because the rest of us don't have the money.

What Evil Tenobi is asking for is a textbook definition of Socialism. In economic terms, it equates to that and/or what we have here in the United States with "Class Warfare" in our current election cycle.

Here, here, Brian. Well said.

Now, rather than argue, go to the application code discussion forum, and look at the Suggestions for performance improvement thread where your contributions and suggestions may bring light to these co-operative processes.

*All of that absolutely screams jealousy*

You really think that's the case? I know i'm in awe at some of the computing power that some people have managed to bring together. If thats jealousy then guilty as charged.
What really gets up my nose is the fact that Milksop has blatantly found a work around on the credit and wu cap that Travis put in place to try and stop the abuse instigated by another smart ass, which you all seem to have conveniently forgotten. Screams dishonesty to me. Does anyone know who Milksop really is ? i don't, and i don't really care to be honest, all i know is he is a dishonest wanna be could'a been try hard.

I just noted, that zed, veebee and Evil Tenobi are all from the Cruncher Junkies team. Is it your team philosophy to waste your CPU cycles or what? Why do you oppose to pressure the MW staff to get the things done? Milksop doesn't belong to a team, it doesn't distort the team statistics, so why are you having so strong objections against our actions? I would understand it, if we would do it with our personal accounts and for our team. But now?

I have no control as to what and who posts to this thread and besides its a free open and fair forum! Is it not ? ... Do you think a particular team has it out for you ? Get over yourself. I alone opened this thread up because i am fed up, and instead of sitting on my hands i have voiced my opinion/accusations call it what you like .... I have never involved myself in project politics before but i like this project and will voice my concerns.

You say OUR actions ? so your not alone then ? What else are you hiding ?
correct me if i'm wrong but i think you stated somewhere that you could earn up to 2 million creds a day ? whats stopping you ? you feeling guilty about having slapped every other user into submission ? Or do you feel that would be hogging to many wu's ? your such an upstanding peoples person, YAY Milksop.

Stop what your doing and i might believe you're here to help the project. Until that happens i will continue to attack your motives. I have that right