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Brian Silvers

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Message 5493 - Posted: 16 Oct 2008, 19:49:50 UTC - in response to Message 5491.  


What really gets up my nose is the fact that Milksop has blatantly found a work around on the credit and wu cap that Travis put in place to try and stop the abuse instigated by another smart ass, which you all seem to have conveniently forgotten. Screams dishonesty to me.


I didn't forget what happened, I just happen to disagree with what was done. The appropriate course of action by the project would've been to declare the application could not be used until formally tested by the project team rather than a speed cap.

Of course, that potentially (likely) goes against the spirit of Open Source Software...considering there is no obligation placed upon the user to share the improvement with the community as a whole. Where things would get into a gray area is if the output was not identical to the output of the stock application, but the validator still validated them.

In any case, it has become very obvious that the three of you are miffed because your positions in the standings have dropped. They have only dropped by 1 or 2 spots more than they already would have dropped / will be dropping, given the fact that other participants behind you appear to have more raw processing power than you do without any code optimization to cloud the issue.
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Message 5494 - Posted: 16 Oct 2008, 19:50:58 UTC - in response to Message 5491.  
Last modified: 16 Oct 2008, 20:01:51 UTC

What really gets up my nose is the fact that Milksop has blatantly found a work around on the credit and wu cap that Travis put in place to try and stop the abuse instigated by another smart ass, which you all seem to have conveniently forgotten. Screams dishonesty to me. Does anyone know who Milksop really is ? i don't, and i don't really care to be honest, all i know is he is a dishonest wanna be could'a been try hard.

One should of course not forget, what Crunch3r has done (no cheating involved there, too). But what you seem have to conveniently forgotten is that Crunch3r told the MW staff about the performance issues of the app quite some time ago. But somehow it slipped under the radar of most participants here, that one can do the same work as now in one percent of the calcuation time (Crunch3r thinks even 0.1 percent should be possible).

What is dishonest in pointing to that fact and deliberately choose to pass the chance to make a lot of credits for my own account? Yes, that is true. Read my first answer here in the thread again (the reading comprehension part). What you (and some others) fail to recognize is that this is simply not an account attached to an individual person. I (the one writing this) could make about 2 milion points for my account and my team if I really wanted. Another guy also contributing to this account could even do about 4 million/day for his account and his team if he really wanted. But we deliberatly decided not to do so. For what more can you ask if you are requesting honesty and fairness?
We are not lying about our motivations and have not chosen this way in a rash manner. It was the result of quite some discussion. And honestly, it was not an easy decision to turn down the potential of some million extra credits for the team. But we have taken this route.

I alone opened this thread up because i am fed up, and instead of sitting on my hands i have voiced my opinion/accusations call it what you like .... I have never involved myself in project politics before but i like this project and will voice my concerns.

You see, we have created this account, because we were fed up, and instead of sitting on our hands some months longer we decided to give our protest a voice and a profile. That's how Milksop was born.

You say OUR actions ? so your not alone then ? What else are you hiding ?

We are hiding nothing. Just a hint, reading comprehension.

Stop what your doing and i might believe you're here to help the project. Until that happens i will continue to attack your motives. I have that right

To cite what Dave Przybylo (from MW staff in case you don't know) said to my suggestions for a substantial performance improvement:
Wow. This is really helpful.

So I would suggest you let the project decide if we are helpful or not.

We will continue until the project rolls out some major improvements to the stock application. That's also some kind of a right ;)
And if they don't do it, maybe we will change our stand to the distribution of the application (MW don't want that we distribute binaries) sometimes in the future. But the resulting load on the server will certainly break the project, if it is not coordinated with some new WUs doing a lot more than now. We don't want such drastic measures.
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Message 5495 - Posted: 16 Oct 2008, 20:10:37 UTC - in response to Message 5467.  


Here in Germany we have a lot of complaints about the lack of reading comprehension of pupils and students. Now I know this appears to be a general problem all over the world ;)


Mate, you need to put your obvious technical talents to work, but not here...

Before you go making statements like that above, run YOUR OWN posts through a "reading, writing and comprehension " program.

If I was a teacher... I would be putting numerous red circles through your "work" here...

naughty boy !
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Message 5496 - Posted: 16 Oct 2008, 20:17:59 UTC - in response to Message 5495.  
Last modified: 16 Oct 2008, 20:26:54 UTC

If I was a teacher... I would be putting numerous red circles through your "work" here...

If.

Edit:
If you write some posts in a better German than I would do, we speak again.
At least I grasp what others are writing here. And most of the questions zed had, were already answered or are just stated in the Milksop profile.
Btw., put zed's posts (or your own) to the same scrutiny than my ones! I find errors in it, you must find more, but that is childish, isn't it?
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Message 5497 - Posted: 16 Oct 2008, 20:54:38 UTC

No arguments left? Now it comes down to spelling?
Great show!

BTT, please.
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Message 5498 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 2:47:13 UTC - in response to Message 5493.  

[quote]

In any case, it has become very obvious that the three of you are miffed because your positions in the standings have dropped. They have only dropped by 1 or 2 spots more than they already would have dropped / will be dropping, given the fact that other participants behind you appear to have more raw processing power than you do without any code optimization to cloud the issue.


Brian Silver, why do you find it so necessary to antagonize other people and goad them into an argument. What you said above is totally irrelevant to the thread and it seems you are deliberately flaming for us to argue. I do not want to argue with anybody. I made a clear statement of my feelings that I disapprove of the method used by Milsop for it is my beliefe that he is holding Milkyway at ransome. Clearly he stated that unless MW improves the code he will continue the campaign, that to me is a threat. I say again, enough of this already. It has been going on for 10 days. I only made one statement that I disapprove of this method, yet in your reply, you questioned my level of litteracy, my political persvation and insulted my team. I suppose you will continue this attack and question my religion, and my gender as well. As regard your statement above, again, you are looking for an argument. For your information I stopped crunching MW full time months ago when I realised that it is futile to crunch against people who can produce results 10 times as high as the rest of the world. I suspected something is wrong there but I just bowered out without saying anything and chose another project to crunch.

Trevis the project developer, tester and scientist asked 10 days ago that if you find code thats inefficient or outright wrong than let them know instead of attacking the project and what they are trying to do. I suggest you and milsopp continue your efforts in a positive manner instead of attacking anybody who happen to disagree with your methods. Drop this thread and return to a positive input in the 'Source Code Improvement' thread. Your hostile and insulting attitude towards me just because I dared to disagree with the methods used is not welcome by me.
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Brian Silvers

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Message 5500 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 5:11:47 UTC - in response to Message 5498.  


it seems you are deliberately flaming for us to argue.


Nope, I'm just connecting the dots. All of you are or were top 20 by RAC and top 10 by Total Credit. You've made complaints about posting a million credits a day, etc, etc, etc... It is just obvious that what matters most to you is your precious position on the leader boards. I didn't make this thread. One of your teammates did. So, if I understand this, you're whining about me pointing out the obvious when the whole premise of the original post was a flame against whoever the people behind that account are????

I do not want to argue with anybody. I made a clear statement of my feelings that I disapprove of the method used by Milsop for it is my beliefe that he is holding Milkyway at ransome.


Partial agreement from me. I disapprove of the method used. The thing is, I took that complaint to them as someone who is NOT amongst the top 20 AND I articulated my complaint against them very clearly AND it appears I was successful with my goal (that they start opening up more and disclosing more to the project). All three of you are coming across as people who are mad / jealous about your precious standings, which don't really mean anything in the "real world". There's a big difference there...

Clearly he stated that unless MW improves the code he will continue the campaign, that to me is a threat. I say again, enough of this already. It has been going on for 10 days.


From what I can tell, they did scale back.

you questioned my level of litteracy, my political persvation and insulted my team.


No, I didn't question your level of literacy, or your political persuasion. I mentioned that what you were espousing was akin to Socialism, if carried out to other logical extents, which it is... Socialism has at its' core a belief that there should not be as large of a delta between the "haves" and the "have nots" and that the "haves" should forfeit some of what they have to be redistributed to the "have nots". That is what you have been advocating. I merely pointed out that it would be nice if I could afford newer systems that process tasks faster. Of course, you have your hosts hidden, so you could potentially have 1 or 2 hosts and an improved app of your own, but I'm not beating you up for it out of jealousy, am I?



I suppose you will continue this attack and question my religion, and my gender as well.


Are you a drama queen? If not, let's stop with the theatrics, ok?


For your information I stopped crunching MW full time months ago when I realised that it is futile to crunch against people who can produce results 10 times as high as the rest of the world. I suspected something is wrong there but I just bowered out without saying anything and chose another project to crunch.


That implies that there is a competition involved, not the progress of the scientific aspect of the project. As I said, you're concerned about losing your top 20 ranking.



Trevis the project developer, tester and scientist asked 10 days ago that if you find code thats inefficient or outright wrong than let them know instead of attacking the project and what they are trying to do. I suggest you and milsopp continue your efforts in a positive manner instead of attacking anybody who happen to disagree with your methods.


On this, I will question your ability to follow current events and my posts. You apparently are not able to figure out that I'm walking the middle of the road between your perspective and theirs. I've flat out told them that I think their methods should be changed, that I felt that not working with the project was a poor choice and would lead to this kind of resentment and accusations of dishonesty. On the other hand, I disagree with your classification of this as "cheating" based on just the fact that you lost 1 or 2 positions in the project standings, so I'm telling you that. If you don't like it, tough. Milksop took what I said and appears to have thought about it. I'm sure it's not comfortable being told you're throwing a hissy fit born out of jealousy, but, you are... Doesn't mean that I think you're a terrible person / people, just calling it like I see it, much like zed did and you did by replying... You have your right to an opinion, I have mine. If you can't handle being told you're being too demanding, then I'd suggest not posting.

In the meantime, if you are that hurt by what I've had to say, feel free to utilize the red x that is below my post(s).

Brian
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Benjamin Rietveld

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Message 5501 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 6:53:59 UTC

I really don't see the problem with them running their optimized application as long as it gives the same results as the ordinary one...

Give it me too ^_^
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Message 5502 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 6:57:16 UTC - in response to Message 5500.  
Last modified: 17 Oct 2008, 7:09:51 UTC

Milksop not only has an opinion and states it, but uses his app to beat everybody over the head with it and then doesn't like somebody else having an opinion about his actions. Not cool.

The admins. They seem to be invisible or on holidays and nobody knows what is going on. Not cool.

Brian, it would be good if people used that red x wouldn't it? Then hopefully you'd have the only opinion in the thread and nobody standing up to you. What a wonderful solution. You have your opinion and state it. Good for you. You don't like other peoples opinions and state that too. Also, good for you. You say 'tough' to those who don't like your opinion and then you make up fanciful excuses for why other people oppose you. Not cool.

Now, before you get your magnifying glass out to go looking for reasons as to why I'm now having a say, I will give you a hand. I'm the Team Founder of Cruncher Junkies. Do I have a top 10 or even top 20 position to defend? No. I'm way down around 72nd place. Does our team have a position that is worth worrying about to the extent that you claim? No. I wonder what my reason could be then? Doesn't matter as you are very good at inventing them for us. So while you go off making up fairy stories for everyones enjoyment I'll go in another direction.

People who use a weapon and threaten to continue using that weapon till they get what they want are called terrorists. This optimised app is being used in the same manner to achieve one persons or a small groups objectives. Most of the world knows that it doesn't pay to negotiate with terrorists and in the same way it would be wrong of the project admins to negotiate with them until this action ceases. Therefore I call for them to cease and continue talks with the admins. I call upon the admins to allow these talks to continue and I also call upon the rest of the posters to give them some time to think this over and see what happens. Some mature behaviour would go a long way to making this the fun project it used to be.

I'd like to see one of you make the first move publicly. Here. In this forum, and hopefully before any more damage is done.

Is this likely? Unfortunately not. But I live in hope.

Just in case you haven't come up with my reason (or your version of it) for posting, I'll tell you. I just like happy endings. A happy ending here would be great for everyone. There is nothing for you to read between the lines. There's no big secret or a team conspiracy like you seem to want to imply. No jealousy. No animosity. The only benefit for me/us is to see this stop and 'everyone' be able to get on with crunching for Milkyway the way they should be. How about it? Are you guys up to it?
Join Cruncher Junkies on MilkyWay!
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Message 5503 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 7:40:29 UTC - in response to Message 5502.  
Last modified: 17 Oct 2008, 7:41:20 UTC

>Is this likely? Unfortunately not. But I live in hope.


Just to toss something else into the mix how about this....

The MilkyWay project is just an experiment. We the volunteers are the subjects in this grand plan of computer and behavioral science testing. Using the ploy of actually using astronomy as a lure to get people to jump into the soup.

Maybe when this experiment is over someone with real intelligence will figure out that while the goals of DC were noble, the actual implimention as a force for good could not overcome the combination of liars, cheats, name callers, terrorists, people with an opinions, those that have it and those who don't, and the mine's bigger than yours mentality.

Maybe, just maybe someone will come up with an idea that credits are more trouble than they are an incenative and abolish the credit system entirely. Instead maybe occasionally someone would reach out of your computer and pat you on the back and give you an atta boy to make you feel good about all those long hours you've put into a project or the $$$ you spend on equipment and electricity.

No... I guess it was just wishful thinking and a pipe cream that went up in smoke.

Now on to more wistful pursuits... <smile>
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Message 5504 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 7:43:40 UTC - in response to Message 5503.  

You idealist you!! :)

We live in hope.
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Message 5505 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 8:23:20 UTC - in response to Message 5502.  

People who use a weapon and threaten to continue using that weapon till they get what they want are called terrorists. This optimised app is being used in the same manner to achieve one persons or a small groups objectives. Most of the world knows that it doesn't pay to negotiate with terrorists and in the same way it would be wrong of the project admins to negotiate with them until this action ceases.

Somehow it shows the state of your mind that you compare us with terrorists.
We don't threaten the project, we have something to offer. Or if you want, we are trying to educate and raise the project a bit ;)
I asked that before, but is it your team philosophy to waste CPU cycles? If not, our goal to stop this waste should be also your goal. The crunchers on a project have quite some power, if they agree in some important points. The projects is not required to negotiate something with us, they should better just improve their application, for the benefit of the project and all crunchers out there. We are definitely not negotiating this.

I'd like to see one of you make the first move publicly. Here. In this forum, and hopefully before any more damage is done.

Is this likely? Unfortunately not. But I live in hope.

Don't hope anymore, it already happened some days ago. :o
This was actually pointed out already several times by me and also Brian Silvers. That was the reason for the reading comprehension teasing.

Just in case you haven't come up with my reason (or your version of it) for posting, I'll tell you. I just like happy endings. A happy ending here would be great for everyone. There is nothing for you to read between the lines. There's no big secret or a team conspiracy like you seem to want to imply. No jealousy. No animosity. The only benefit for me/us is to see this stop and 'everyone' be able to get on with crunching for Milkyway the way they should be. How about it? Are you guys up to it?

Yeah, a happy end. The MW staff improves their code and bring out a new version within a week improving the calculation speed by a factor of 50 for everyone. After some time, the effort to rewrite the app completely pays out and we get an app doing the calculations a factor of 250 faster than the current one. Much more can be done with our efforts and we crunch happily ever after.

Are you up to it? We are!
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Message 5506 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 8:31:40 UTC - in response to Message 5505.  

There is 1 solution to all this and this will put an end to the discussion once and for all . But i doubt the Admins would be impressed ! But it would make them stick there heads up and take notice, and that is for Milksop to distribute his so called wonder app to the masses of Milky crunchers. Put your money where your mouth is, if your doing it to improve things then what better way than to have everyone reaping the benefits of your wonder app and you would be a hero to everyone!! You'd like that wouldn't you ? You and your ever faithful side kick Brian the fence sitter
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Message 5507 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 8:37:15 UTC - in response to Message 5505.  

That was the reason for the reading comprehension teasing.


Like the way you say 'Somehow it shows the state of your mind that you compare us with terrorists.' ???

Reading comprehension certainly would help here. I compared your actions, not you.

If all you are going to do is sift through everyones posts looking for something to make childish taunts about then good luck to you. You may have a great app, but you aren't doing yourself or your 'quest' any favours by acting in this manner.
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Message 5508 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 8:41:40 UTC - in response to Message 5506.  

There is 1 solution to all this and this will put an end to the discussion once and for all . But i doubt the Admins would be impressed ! But it would make them stick there heads up and take notice, and that is for Milksop to distribute his so called wonder app to the masses of Milky crunchers. Put your money where your mouth is, if your doing it to improve things then what better way than to have everyone reaping the benefits of your wonder app and you would be a hero to everyone!! You'd like that wouldn't you ? You and your ever faithful side kick Brian the fence sitter

You are the first one to call it a wonder app ;)
There is no magic involved.

And again, we stated our position to this in the profile as well as here in the thread already. Such a step would break the project. We don't want this. But in fact, we would think about it if nothing moves to the better.
The idealists alternative would be that all crunchers stop their involvement here until something changes. But this would be illusional, isn't it?
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Message 5509 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 8:43:52 UTC - in response to Message 5507.  

Like the way you say 'Somehow it shows the state of your mind that you compare us with terrorists.' ???

Reading comprehension certainly would help here. I compared your actions, not you.

After spelling now nitpicking? It gets better. Move on!
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Message 5510 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 8:46:33 UTC - in response to Message 5509.  
Last modified: 17 Oct 2008, 8:48:04 UTC

I never mentioned anyones spelling.

Move on? Great idea. We'll follow you Oh Great Leader. :)
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Message 5511 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 8:58:16 UTC - in response to Message 5510.  
Last modified: 17 Oct 2008, 8:59:30 UTC

Move on? Great idea. We'll follow you Oh Great Leader. :)

See my signs and act accordingly ;)

Seriously, you should have some arguments against my version of the happy end. Or you could answer the question if you (your team) wants the stock app to be improved or just want to avoid any disturbance to the project potentially affecting the high creditlevel here as suggested by the posts of Brian.
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Message 5512 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 9:21:48 UTC - in response to Message 5508.  


And again, we stated our position to this in the profile as well as here in the thread already. Such a step would break the project. We don't want this. But in fact, we would think about it if nothing moves to the better.
The idealists alternative would be that all crunchers stop their involvement here until something changes. But this would be illusional, isn't it?


Why wait to break the project you said yourself it's been going on for months without any indication from the project as to when or if they will implement it. Don't talk about it JUST DO IT or are you to AFRAID ? you afraid you won't be seen as an upstanding honest fella of the boinc community. Don't make threats you and your cronies are not prepared to commit to. You have no credibility left.

And i would like to hear from the project itself as to whether any progress is being made ? Is it ? If so why is it not being discussed openly for all to see. Do both parties have something to hide?
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Message 5513 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 9:52:49 UTC - in response to Message 5512.  

Why wait to break the project you said yourself it's been going on for months without any indication from the project as to when or if they will implement it. Don't talk about it JUST DO IT or are you to AFRAID ? you afraid you won't be seen as an upstanding honest fella of the boinc community. Don't make threats you and your cronies are not prepared to commit to. You have no credibility left.

Because the project promised to look at the code? AFAIK, it is the first time they took this step publicly. Why should we destroy (or least make some serious trouble to) a project, when progress appears to be closer than ever? Just for our egos? I thought that was what you (falsely) alleged us to.

We have done, what we said and plan to continue in this manner. That is the base of credibility. You don't have to decide if we act credible or not, we are deciding it.
Btw., if my partner chooses to publish his improved version, I could actually do nothing about this. The same applies the other way around. But we have agreed not to do this for the time being.

And i would like to hear from the project itself as to whether any progress is being made ? Is it ? If so why is it not being discussed openly for all to see. Do both parties have something to hide?

We have nothing to hide. For the other questions, ask the project!
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