Welcome to MilkyWay@home

I think you made your point !!


Advanced search

Message boards : Number crunching : I think you made your point !!
Message board moderation

To post messages, you must log in.

Previous · 1 · 2 · 3 · 4 · 5 · Next

AuthorMessage
ProfileDistroMan
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 28 Dec 07
Posts: 26
Credit: 1,161,815
RAC: 0
1 million credit badge10 year member badge
Message 5514 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 10:00:07 UTC - in response to Message 5511.  

Seriously, you should have some arguments against my version of the happy end.


No I shouldn't. I'm not arguing. Just stating an opinion.

Or you could answer the question if you (your team) wants the stock app to be improved or just want to avoid any disturbance to the project potentially affecting the high credit level here as suggested by the posts of Brian.


I could, I could, but I won't as I'm trying not to be like that. :)

If there is improvement to be made in the app, I'm ok with that. I'm also ok with avoiding disturbance to the peace and quiet we used to enjoy here. Both should be able to be achieved in conjunction with each other instead of what has happened here lately. I like peace, quiet and credits. :)
ID: 5514 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
utopia-i

Send message
Joined: 3 Dec 07
Posts: 7
Credit: 1,001,407
RAC: 0
1 million credit badge10 year member badge
Message 5515 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 10:05:49 UTC

IMHO

does the optimized app improve the science? - or cause issues with credits and numerous forum posting - you optimized the app because .. you don't release it to all because?

why not do what Einstein@home does - open, up front, for all, detailed help and instructions - all to help their science ..

Windows S5R4 SSE2 power App 6.05 available
http://einstein.phys.uwm.edu/forum_forum.php?id=3

make it available to all that can use it - give the MW Admin staff some time to develop their own app offering with the chosen ones volunteering input/improvements ...

b happy
ID: 5515 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profilezed

Send message
Joined: 17 Oct 07
Posts: 23
Credit: 26,399,335
RAC: 0
20 million credit badge10 year member badge
Message 5516 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 10:18:18 UTC - in response to Message 5513.  
Last modified: 17 Oct 2008, 10:20:32 UTC


Because the project promised to look at the code? AFAIK, it is the first time they took this step publicly.


When did this happen ? in the last 5 mins ?

Then if this is the case and progress is being made then there is no need for you to continue with this ridiculous campaign ! And your account should be deleted immediately!
ID: 5516 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
sandro

Send message
Joined: 17 Oct 08
Posts: 16
Credit: 16,783
RAC: 0
10 thousand credit badge10 year member badge
Message 5517 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 10:44:39 UTC - in response to Message 5512.  



Why wait to break the project you said yourself it's been going on for months without any indication from the project as to when or if they will implement it. Don't talk about it JUST DO IT or are you to AFRAID ? you afraid you won't be seen as an upstanding honest fella of the boinc community. Don't make threats you and your cronies are not prepared to commit to. You have no credibility left.


So YOU would kill the project if you had the opportunity? Good to know.
You and your fellows are the reason why the optimized apps from crunch3r and milksoap shouldnt be shared.
All of your post show the same subliminal tendency of what your REAL issues are:
You are jealous and want that optimized app so you can make credits.
ID: 5517 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Brian Silvers

Send message
Joined: 21 Aug 08
Posts: 625
Credit: 558,425
RAC: 0
500 thousand credit badge10 year member badge
Message 5518 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 11:12:28 UTC - in response to Message 5502.  


People who use a weapon and threaten to continue using that weapon till they get what they want are called terrorists. This optimised app is being used in the same manner to achieve one persons or a small groups objectives.


You are correct, but it is not "cheating". The code is open source and you can get a copy and roll your own version of it too.

I love how I'm getting lumped in with "them" in this "us vs. them" thing too. BOTH groups are BOTH wrong in some of their approaches to the issue.

Where you and I will join together is if they start releasing the binary to people.

I just like happy endings. A happy ending here would be great for everyone.


Agreed, but the discussion to date has been how unfair it is that they're getting as many credits as they are and allegations of "cheating". They are not "cheating". They are teetering on the edge of what you are saying about holding the project hostage with some of their more recent posts (after I started objecting to this thread), and I'll address that in a little bit today. Need to get dressed and out the door at the moment...
ID: 5518 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
ProfileDistroMan
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 28 Dec 07
Posts: 26
Credit: 1,161,815
RAC: 0
1 million credit badge10 year member badge
Message 5519 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 11:15:11 UTC - in response to Message 5517.  

Sandro, that is not what is being said and you know it. Stop trying to cause arguments and start the problems again. Things are settling down here. Why try so hard to make them worse? We don't want the optimised app at all. We want the project admins to do their best with the app they have and the current optimised app to go away. The current official app shouldn't be replaced in this manner, but it should be fixed. Then we are all on a level playing field. That is quite simple to understand. Go play in someone elses sandbox and stop causing trouble.
ID: 5519 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
ProfileDistroMan
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 28 Dec 07
Posts: 26
Credit: 1,161,815
RAC: 0
1 million credit badge10 year member badge
Message 5520 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 11:17:26 UTC - in response to Message 5518.  


People who use a weapon and threaten to continue using that weapon till they get what they want are called terrorists. This optimised app is being used in the same manner to achieve one persons or a small groups objectives.


You are correct, but it is not "cheating". The code is open source and you can get a copy and roll your own version of it too.

I love how I'm getting lumped in with "them" in this "us vs. them" thing too. BOTH groups are BOTH wrong in some of their approaches to the issue.

Where you and I will join together is if they start releasing the binary to people.

I just like happy endings. A happy ending here would be great for everyone.


Agreed, but the discussion to date has been how unfair it is that they're getting as many credits as they are and allegations of "cheating". They are not "cheating". They are teetering on the edge of what you are saying about holding the project hostage with some of their more recent posts (after I started objecting to this thread), and I'll address that in a little bit today. Need to get dressed and out the door at the moment...


I hope you don't think I'm lumping you in with 'them'. I speak to you, as you. Them as 'them'. While we may disagree on some points, you are right, we agree on where it should lead. Have a good day.
ID: 5520 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
sandro

Send message
Joined: 17 Oct 08
Posts: 16
Credit: 16,783
RAC: 0
10 thousand credit badge10 year member badge
Message 5521 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 11:34:49 UTC - in response to Message 5519.  

Then we are all on a level playing field.

again, this shows that you are not interested in the project itselfs, you just want others beeing as capable as you.
The project is able to make 100x more science in the same time, so a optimized app it actually good for them. milksaop is a teamless cruncher and he is aware that his account ist a "throw-away"-account, so no team or single cruncher should be threatenend

Go play in someone elses sandbox and stop causing trouble.

speaking about sandboxes, thats exact the image i have in mind when i read your and your fellows posts. a crying baby in a sandbox cause another have a bigger shovel than you.
ID: 5521 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
ProfileDistroMan
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 28 Dec 07
Posts: 26
Credit: 1,161,815
RAC: 0
1 million credit badge10 year member badge
Message 5522 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 11:41:56 UTC - in response to Message 5521.  

Then we are all on a level playing field.

again, this shows that you are not interested in the project itselfs, you just want others beeing as capable as you.
The project is able to make 100x more science in the same time, so a optimized app it actually good for them. milksaop is a teamless cruncher and he is aware that his account ist a "throw-away"-account, so no team or single cruncher should be threatenend

Go play in someone elses sandbox and stop causing trouble.

speaking about sandboxes, thats exact the image i have in mind when i read your and your fellows posts. a crying baby in a sandbox cause another have a bigger shovel than you.


The whole time I've been posting I've been trying to stop the arguments, get the app fixed so everyone can crunch more for the project. Everyone, not just one or two. There is nothing wrong with wanting credits. Some crunch for the science and some for the credits. Some for both. Nothing wrong with any of that. But they should all have the same good app. The concept isn't rocket science. Read it with an open mind and stop looking for an argument.
ID: 5522 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Milksop at try

Send message
Joined: 1 Oct 08
Posts: 106
Credit: 24,162,445
RAC: 0
20 million credit badge10 year member badge
Message 5523 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 12:55:05 UTC - in response to Message 5519.  

Sandro, that is not what is being said and you know it. Stop trying to cause arguments and start the problems again. Things are settling down here. Why try so hard to make them worse? We don't want the optimised app at all. We want the project admins to do their best with the app they have and the current optimised app to go away. The current official app shouldn't be replaced in this manner, but it should be fixed. Then we are all on a level playing field. That is quite simple to understand.

The destruction of the project was exactly what zed demanded. That would happen if we would just release the binary to the public, quite simple.

If I understand you right, you don't want optimized apps, but you want the official app improved. Well, thats's exactly what we want. The project was somehow reluctant to improve the app in the last months. Now it appears they rethink their approach. Do you think that this would have happened if we just sat on our hands? I don't think so. Some action was (and still is) needed to get or keep things in motion.

A level playing field is important of course, but it can not be the excuse for wasting 99% of our CPU cycles. The level playing field was the very reason to create a new teamless account for this purpose. That way, no individual or team gets an unfair advantage. You should recognize this.
ID: 5523 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Brian Silvers

Send message
Joined: 21 Aug 08
Posts: 625
Credit: 558,425
RAC: 0
500 thousand credit badge10 year member badge
Message 5525 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 13:39:40 UTC - in response to Message 5523.  
Last modified: 17 Oct 2008, 13:41:33 UTC


If I understand you right, you don't want optimized apps, but you want the official app improved. Well, thats's exactly what we want. The project was somehow reluctant to improve the app in the last months. Now it appears they rethink their approach. Do you think that this would have happened if we just sat on our hands? I don't think so. Some action was (and still is) needed to get or keep things in motion.


You're aware that I disagree with the holding things back from the project. I've mentioned that to you several times. I've told you that it causes people to feel like you're being dishonest. This thread is more evidence of that.

What I also don't like to see is you (individually or as a group) stating that if there isn't action on your timetable, you will consider other additional actions to try to add motivation. That really comes across as being overly demanding and, yes, terrorist-like.

Questions:

Have you made all of your changes available to the project? If not, explain.

If the answer to the first question is "no" and the reason is because you feel they should learn on their own rather than you handing the code to them, honestly, it is not your place to try to act as "The Schoolmaster"

Acting as though it is your duty to "show them up", "take them to school", or coerce more than you already have is poor behavior. It also goes against the spirit of cooperation in Open Source software.

The original poster is correct that you have made your point. I still think the original poster is merely upset about their standings, thus the continual cries for this account to be deleted and the credits removed, enabling them to come back up a couple of places.

My stand, which has been consistent, is that it is not your place to dictate to the project the way that they run the project. If you want to help them, by all means, help them, but do not do it out of spite or give the impression that you are holding things back. Do not make threats that if things aren't done within X number of days, you'll take further actions. Those equate to "ransom demands".

Act a bit more responsibly, and you'll likely have less friction from people here and better cooperation from the project staff.

-Brian
ID: 5525 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
ProfileDistroMan
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 28 Dec 07
Posts: 26
Credit: 1,161,815
RAC: 0
1 million credit badge10 year member badge
Message 5526 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 13:45:11 UTC - in response to Message 5523.  

Sandro, that is not what is being said and you know it. Stop trying to cause arguments and start the problems again. Things are settling down here. Why try so hard to make them worse? We don't want the optimised app at all. We want the project admins to do their best with the app they have and the current optimised app to go away. The current official app shouldn't be replaced in this manner, but it should be fixed. Then we are all on a level playing field. That is quite simple to understand.

The destruction of the project was exactly what zed demanded. That would happen if we would just release the binary to the public, quite simple.

If I understand you right, you don't want optimized apps, but you want the official app improved. Well, thats's exactly what we want. The project was somehow reluctant to improve the app in the last months. Now it appears they rethink their approach. Do you think that this would have happened if we just sat on our hands? I don't think so. Some action was (and still is) needed to get or keep things in motion.

A level playing field is important of course, but it can not be the excuse for wasting 99% of our CPU cycles. The level playing field was the very reason to create a new teamless account for this purpose. That way, no individual or team gets an unfair advantage. You should recognize this.


You never stop twisting words do you. I never said anything about destroying the project. Read 'my' posts and reply to me. Not someone elses. Or would you like me to read Sandros and accuse you of saying the things he said? If you want a sensible outcome, have a sensible conversation or don't bother replying to me. I have no time for this stupidity. :(
ID: 5526 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Brian Silvers

Send message
Joined: 21 Aug 08
Posts: 625
Credit: 558,425
RAC: 0
500 thousand credit badge10 year member badge
Message 5527 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 13:49:38 UTC - in response to Message 5522.  
Last modified: 17 Oct 2008, 13:51:16 UTC

There is nothing wrong with wanting credits. Some crunch for the science and some for the credits. Some for both. Nothing wrong with any of that. But they should all have the same good app. The concept isn't rocket science. Read it with an open mind and stop looking for an argument.


The project has stated that they are making the source code available to everyone. That includes me, you, zed...everyone. The way Open Source Software works is that if you have an improvement, you are encouraged to submit that improvement back to the community as a whole, but you are not required to do so. You are also not required to provide your source code unless you start distributing the application. At that point you are supposed to include compilable source along with the application or provide easy access to the source for download.

So, disregarding the current events, if the project intends on being Open Source, you can still have a situation in the future where someone finds a great improvement, makes the change, but neither you nor the project get any betterment from it because they have behaved according to the letter of Open Source (GPL, typically). It does not matter if they have violated the spirit of it, only if they violate the letter of it.
ID: 5527 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
ProfileDistroMan
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 28 Dec 07
Posts: 26
Credit: 1,161,815
RAC: 0
1 million credit badge10 year member badge
Message 5528 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 14:37:49 UTC - in response to Message 5527.  

Unfortunately, there will always be those...

But let's look on the bright side of life and hope things go right. :)

Have a good day ladies and gentlemen.

Distro OUT!
ID: 5528 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Al

Send message
Joined: 9 Aug 08
Posts: 10
Credit: 46,370
RAC: 0
10 thousand credit badge10 year member badge
Message 5530 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 20:14:56 UTC
Last modified: 17 Oct 2008, 20:17:47 UTC

You just bit me with your app, Milksop. You did a WU in under 1.5 hours when it took me more than 11 hours for the same one... I don't expect I'll get credit for it. Looks like I should abort when it gets to the due date.

Al
ID: 5530 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Brian Silvers

Send message
Joined: 21 Aug 08
Posts: 625
Credit: 558,425
RAC: 0
500 thousand credit badge10 year member badge
Message 5531 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 21:00:26 UTC - in response to Message 5530.  

You just bit me with your app, Milksop. You did a WU in under 1.5 hours when it took me more than 11 hours for the same one... I don't expect I'll get credit for it. Looks like I should abort when it gets to the due date.

Al


I'm not trying to side with Milksop with what I'm about to say, but...

My AMD system is capable of going through a 260 credit task in around 18,000 - 19,000 seconds with the same application you're using. You reported the task 23,352 seconds past deadline, thus my AMD system could've caused the same situation to happen for you.

The larger issue for you is resource allocation and/or system uptime and/or cache size...
ID: 5531 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profilezed

Send message
Joined: 17 Oct 07
Posts: 23
Credit: 26,399,335
RAC: 0
20 million credit badge10 year member badge
Message 5532 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 21:16:41 UTC - in response to Message 5525.  



You're aware that I disagree with the holding things back from the project. I've mentioned that to you several times. I've told you that it causes people to feel like you're being dishonest. This thread is more evidence of that.

What I also don't like to see is you (individually or as a group) stating that if there isn't action on your timetable, you will consider other additional actions to try to add motivation. That really comes across as being overly demanding and, yes, terrorist-like.

Questions:

Have you made all of your changes available to the project? If not, explain.

If the answer to the first question is "no" and the reason is because you feel they should learn on their own rather than you handing the code to them, honestly, it is not your place to try to act as "The Schoolmaster"

Acting as though it is your duty to "show them up", "take them to school", or coerce more than you already have is poor behavior. It also goes against the spirit of cooperation in Open Source software.

The original poster is correct that you have made your point. I still think the original poster is merely upset about their standings, thus the continual cries for this account to be deleted and the credits removed, enabling them to come back up a couple of places.

My stand, which has been consistent, is that it is not your place to dictate to the project the way that they run the project. If you want to help them, by all means, help them, but do not do it out of spite or give the impression that you are holding things back. Do not make threats that if things aren't done within X number of days, you'll take further actions. Those equate to "ransom demands".

Act a bit more responsibly, and you'll likely have less friction from people here and better cooperation from the project staff.

-Brian


Brian you were doing so well up to the point of where you keep mentioning my standing within the rankings. I have continually stated that i don't give 2 hoots as to where i am if i did i would be still crunching my ass off on this project. The rest of this post is the most intelligent thing you've said so far, and is the 1st real indication from you that you disagree with the tactics that Milksop has taken.

The other comments directed at me are not even worth the effort to respond to!!
ID: 5532 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profileveebee

Send message
Joined: 15 Oct 07
Posts: 14
Credit: 150,634,885
RAC: 0
100 million credit badge10 year member badge
Message 5533 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 21:37:32 UTC - in response to Message 5497.  

[quote]No arguments left? Now it comes down to spelling?
quote]

@ Cluster Physik .. I never made any arguments on a technical level myself.. I am not qualified to do so.

I just like "stirring the pot"... much more fun than boring old boards where everyone agrees with each other...

Just having some fun ! you guys should all lighten up a bit and try doing the same.

Veebee

P.S: I am all for whatever it takes to improve the efficiency of the application and the project as a whole
ID: 5533 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Milksop at try

Send message
Joined: 1 Oct 08
Posts: 106
Credit: 24,162,445
RAC: 0
20 million credit badge10 year member badge
Message 5534 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 21:40:26 UTC - in response to Message 5526.  

posted by zed:
Why wait to break the project you said yourself it's been going on for months without any indication from the project as to when or if they will implement it. Don't talk about it JUST DO IT

posted by Sandro:
So YOU would kill the project if you had the opportunity? Good to know.

posted by DistroMan:
Sandro, that is not what is being said and you know it.

Posted by me:
The destruction of the project was exactly what zed demanded. That would happen if we would just release the binary to the public, quite simple.

posted by DistroMan:
You never stop twisting words do you. I never said anything about destroying the project. Read 'my' posts and reply to me. Not someone elses. Or would you like me to read Sandros and accuse you of saying the things he said? If you want a sensible outcome, have a sensible conversation or don't bother replying to me. I have no time for this stupidity. :(

You are right, that is getting stupid.
Btw., I'm reading all posts not only yours. And I guess I'm free to answer all I want.
ID: 5534 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Milksop at try

Send message
Joined: 1 Oct 08
Posts: 106
Credit: 24,162,445
RAC: 0
20 million credit badge10 year member badge
Message 5535 - Posted: 17 Oct 2008, 22:20:29 UTC - in response to Message 5525.  

Have you made all of your changes available to the project? If not, explain.

The post in the code discussion forum describes all major changes I've done to the app. I don't know exactly what my partner at this account has changed (we did not exchange the code), but these are the obvious things to do, so I would presume that his version looks somehow similar. What I have not done is to simply give the project the source code. I explained the reason for that to you already more than a week ago.

My stand, which has been consistent, is that it is not your place to dictate to the project the way that they run the project. If you want to help them, by all means, help them, but do not do it out of spite or give the impression that you are holding things back. Do not make threats that if things aren't done within X number of days, you'll take further actions. Those equate to "ransom demands".

Our stand has also been consistent. I said already several times we are not hiding something. We are not trying to dictate the project the way they should run the project. But if you learn that your government wastes 99 percent of your tax dollars, what would happen? Surely some kind of protest will arise. And nothing else we are doing, we are just protesting against such a waste and made suggestions how to end it.

And as far as I remember we did not threaten the project in an ultimative way (if something does not happen in X days, then ...). Actually I explained to zed that we have decided not to do it and also the reasons for that. All I said was that one of course has to think again, if after some time it turns out that the project is really unwilling to improve their app. But I also said in this thread that it looks like the project has now this will.

Act a bit more responsibly, and you'll likely have less friction from people here and better cooperation from the project staff.

Maybe we acted a little bit too responsible, for John Q. Public ;)
It would surely be a lot easier to hide the host list and just make some million credits, isn't it?
ID: 5535 · Rating: 0 · rate: Rate + / Rate - Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Previous · 1 · 2 · 3 · 4 · 5 · Next

Message boards : Number crunching : I think you made your point !!

©2019 Astroinformatics Group