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ProfileChertseyAl
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Message 5719 - Posted: 31 Oct 2008, 21:38:26 UTC

Quote via Dave from DA in another thread:

And I got a note from Dave Anderson yesterday saying that we're already over the limit on credits and we should lower them

Crikey.

Never mind the science, just make sure that SETI gets the benefit.

Speechless.

Plently of pure DC projects out there folks, I think BOINC is now just a political exercise rather than a mechanism for actually getting things done.

Unbelievable.

Al.
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ProfileThe Gas Giant
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Message 5731 - Posted: 1 Nov 2008, 3:56:20 UTC - in response to Message 5719.  

Quote via Dave from DA in another thread:

And I got a note from Dave Anderson yesterday saying that we're already over the limit on credits and we should lower them

Crikey.

Never mind the science, just make sure that SETI gets the benefit.

Speechless.

Plently of pure DC projects out there folks, I think BOINC is now just a political exercise rather than a mechanism for actually getting things done.

Unbelievable.

Al.

I think it's a gross misrepresentation that Dr A wants everyone to do SETI, in fact, I believe he just doesn't want any single project giving more incentive to draw crunchers to a specific project to the detriment of other projects. That would be a failure of the BOINC concept. He is after the ideal, which doesn't exist, but he has every right to ask the projects to consider what they're doing taking into account how their actions impact other projects and science in general!

Fair enough I reckon.

Live long and BOINC!

Paul.
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Benjamin Rietveld

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Message 5736 - Posted: 1 Nov 2008, 6:55:02 UTC

I agree with him to be honest. If every project would give the exact same credit per second people would chose projects by how interested they are in the science, not, like some are doing now, by which gives most credit
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ProfileLord Tedric
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Message 5739 - Posted: 1 Nov 2008, 8:40:26 UTC

Yes limits do exist............OUT OF WORK.

Surely to reduce the speed that wu's take will result in excessive amounts
of wu's to be created, supply and demand.

Did the devs not realise this????
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ProfileArion
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Message 5740 - Posted: 1 Nov 2008, 8:54:44 UTC - in response to Message 5739.  

Yes limits do exist............OUT OF WORK.

Did the devs not realise this????


How about the science project has all the data processed that they need for the entire project in 1 day instead of 1 year or 2?




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Message 5741 - Posted: 1 Nov 2008, 10:05:05 UTC

Well I've decided that I would rather have work than credits. Reset one computer and as soon as the other two run out of work going to reset them as well. Would rather have them working instead of waiting for work.

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Message 5742 - Posted: 1 Nov 2008, 11:17:34 UTC - in response to Message 5739.  

Yes limits do exist............OUT OF WORK.

Surely to reduce the speed that wu's take will result in excessive amounts
of wu's to be created, supply and demand.

Did the devs not realise this????


Two thoughts:
Firstly, this project generates WUs from previously returned results. There are currently 34,313 WUs in progress. Just guessing here, but I suspect that is unusually high, caused by many people suddenly downloading more than normal to be crunched with the faster app (somewhat guilty myself). So, crunchers, get your work back so we can all get more work...

Secondly, the faster app was not released by the devs, but by 'Milksop at try'. But, they are planning to release their own faster app, so I guess this should warn them about what will happen if ALL their crunchers start crunching faster.

Perhaps longer WUs again? But PLEASE devs, if you increase the WU length, adjust the estimated crunch time this time around. If you're not sure how much, make it too high - at least then nobody downloads WUs they won't finish in time.

Regards
Rod

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Benjamin Rietveld

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Message 5744 - Posted: 1 Nov 2008, 11:30:49 UTC - in response to Message 5741.  

Well I've decided that I would rather have work than credits. Reset one computer and as soon as the other two run out of work going to reset them as well. Would rather have them working instead of waiting for work.


That's a pretty strange way of reasoning. You can do a job in five minutes but instead you choose to let it take five hours... The logical thing to do is to do the job in 5 minutes, then do something else useful the other 4 hours 55 minutes, in this case, let it run another project in the time you're waiting for WUs
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Message 5767 - Posted: 1 Nov 2008, 18:44:43 UTC - in response to Message 5744.  
Last modified: 1 Nov 2008, 18:45:16 UTC

That's a pretty strange way of reasoning. You can do a job in five minutes but instead you choose to let it take five hours... The logical thing to do is to do the job in 5 minutes, then do something else useful the other 4 hours 55 minutes, in this case, let it run another project in the time you're waiting for WUs


I just got up and looked and saw that the servers are drained. Both of my other machines ARE working on other projects just like they were before so they aren't idle. However, when I reset the wife's computer (which I take my life in my hands by messing with in the first place) it got enough work based on how fast it was with the optimized client. Since it is a single core I don't like it constantly swapping out with projects and actually other projects just take almost a day to do a workunit. As it is now her cache should get her through until the wu deadlines instead of waiting and hoping to get more work. I remain undecided on what I'll do with the other two boxes until after I've had my coffee and wake up enough to get the fog out of my brain.
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Message 5822 - Posted: 2 Nov 2008, 23:04:06 UTC
Last modified: 2 Nov 2008, 23:29:14 UTC

Seems that Travis has decided to kneel at the master's feet "DR" Anderson - and is reducing the credits.


Credit for the optimized app has already been lowered, and now it is being lowered again? A "standard" WU before the app was released was granting 120-260 Credit, now it is granting 5-20 credit. And Travis thinks it needs to be lowered again?

What makes SETI the benchmark?

And if credit is going to be lowered here for the optimized app, should it not reasonably be lowered at the "kings" pet project SETI? Poor Mr Anderson.
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Message 5823 - Posted: 3 Nov 2008, 0:04:27 UTC - in response to Message 5822.  

Seems that Travis has decided to kneel at the master's feet "DR" Anderson - and is reducing the credits.

What makes SETI the benchmark?

And if credit is going to be lowered here for the optimized app, should it not reasonably be lowered at the "kings" pet project SETI? Poor Mr Anderson.


All to benefit SETI. If credit is too high anywhere else than that will pull a very small amount of computers frm SETI. And we can't have that now can we?

Another mark on the wall for me.
Doesn't expecting the unexpected make the unexpected the expected?
If it makes sense, DON'T do it.
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ProfileThe Gas Giant
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Message 5829 - Posted: 3 Nov 2008, 3:00:40 UTC - in response to Message 5822.  


Seems that Travis has decided to kneel at the master's feet "DR" Anderson - and is reducing the credits.

What makes SETI the benchmark?

And if credit is going to be lowered here for the optimized app, should it not reasonably be lowered at the "kings" pet project SETI? Poor Mr Anderson.


All to benefit SETI. If credit is too high anywhere else than that will pull a very small amount of computers frm SETI. And we can't have that now can we?

Another mark on the wall for me.


Actually the project is still currently giving a MAXIMUM 213 credits per cpu hour (or there abouts). What you should be complaining about is that my old 3.0GHZ P4 gets the same credits per cpu hour as my Q9450..... Great for my old P4, not so great for my Q9450 - but overall still way more than any other project.

I think it's a gross misrepresentation that Dr A wants everyone to do SETI, in fact, I believe, he just doesn't want any single project giving more incentive to draw crunchers to a specific project to the detriment of other projects. That would be a failure of the BOINC concept. He is after the ideal, which doesn't exist, but he has every right to ask the projects to consider what they're doing taking into account how their actions impact other projects.

Every project that has a standard app should claim about the same per cpu hr for the standard computer. Once an app gets optimised, well that is a different story. As the standard MilkyWay app is not optimised then I should get the same credit for running it per cpu hour on my Q9450 as I should get running MalariaControl which is also not optimised. That is not the case. That is all Dr A is trying to achieve. To keep on harping about how Dr A is orientated to SETI only is just plain wrong.

Yes something has to be the benchmark - and since SETI was around at the beginning of BOINC then that is it. What I don't like about what is happening is that the standard computer is being changed, so in reality my old P4 will get less credits per cpu hour next year than it did 2 yrs ago. Now that sucks!

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Message 5830 - Posted: 3 Nov 2008, 3:33:14 UTC

Time to make some phone calls again and maybe drive my backside out to the College to have a chat. I'm not that far away
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Message 5832 - Posted: 3 Nov 2008, 3:50:00 UTC

Well, DA has ruined another project with his constant search for the elusive parity. I could live with it if he put as much pressure on the projects giving less than SETI as he does those purportedly giving more. Then and only then do you have true parity, but as always that never happens. Well, my farm is leaving Milkyway for good.
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Brian Silvers

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Message 5833 - Posted: 3 Nov 2008, 3:54:23 UTC - in response to Message 5829.  


I think it's a gross misrepresentation that Dr A wants everyone to do SETI, in fact, I believe, he just doesn't want any single project giving more incentive to draw crunchers to a specific project to the detriment of other projects. That would be a failure of the BOINC concept. He is after the ideal, which doesn't exist, but he has every right to ask the projects to consider what they're doing taking into account how their actions impact other projects.


David and his wanna-be "enforcers" / "kops" / whatever have several issues working against them:


  • They only vigorously go after projects that have a CPCS value greater than around 1.2X SETI. LHC was one of the lowest granting projects out there and where were these people who claimed to want "parity"? Where were the threads full of indignation? The fact that they only go after the high end with zeal makes it appear as though they have another agenda, even if they do not.
  • The claimed "Credit War" between projects simply does not exist. This is an imaginary "problem" that is always brought up.
  • The claimed lack of participants for worthy projects has also been imaginary. SETI is actually the one in need of more processing power due to AstroPulse and the amount of data that they need to process through anyway. The only other project I can think of that may not have enough processing power is Einstein, but that is being rectified somewhat with a faster application for Windows systems.
  • The purported "flocking" of users from lower paying projects to higher paying projects is a mostly imaginary scenario. I say "mostly" because it seems as though the enforcers fail to recognize that various teams have "Project of the Month" drives.



The concept of Cross-Project Parity is nice. I don't think it is going to be possible to attain it though. Mr. Anderson and his supporters would probably do a better service to the BOINC community if they ceased agitating people with the fear-mongering and threats. The better course of action would be to start the process of no longer having BOINC-wide / inter-project comparisons. If the stat sites want to get together and figure out a common "exchange rate", without the influence of David Anderson, then I think that is acceptable. David should not be dictating what the exchange rate should be though, and that was my problem with his decree some time ago.

Yes something has to be the benchmark - and since SETI was around at the beginning of BOINC then that is it. What I don't like about what is happening is that the standard computer is being changed, so in reality my old P4 will get less credits per cpu hour next year than it did 2 yrs ago. Now that sucks!


Yes, that's the flaw of that sliding scale they attempted. There are a few there who declared that the calibrating system was marvelous... They were too focused on the "MUST DO SOMETHING NOW" aspect to sit and think about the fact that they have implemented a system that creates continual deflation.
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ProfileDan T. Morris
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Message 5834 - Posted: 3 Nov 2008, 4:47:12 UTC

Well the halo head has struck again. Well folks it was nice while the dip Dave was not in the mix. Oh well off to abc with me and a lot of others. C-ya




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Message 5835 - Posted: 3 Nov 2008, 5:16:30 UTC

There only appears to be fear mongering regarding credit reduction being spouted by a very vocal few.



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Message 5836 - Posted: 3 Nov 2008, 5:40:25 UTC - in response to Message 5835.  
Last modified: 3 Nov 2008, 5:41:23 UTC

Windows/Linux: 215 credits per hour (max).
Mac (Core 2): 26 credits per hour.

Hey Travis/Dave, where's that new app? The playing field isn't very level here!

Who needs to call in the Kredit Kops for interproject parity when there's this much disparity within a project?

Mutter, grumble, #$%& Milkslop, mutter . . .
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Brian Silvers

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Message 5838 - Posted: 3 Nov 2008, 6:14:06 UTC - in response to Message 5835.  

There only appears to be fear mongering regarding credit reduction being spouted by a very vocal few.


I mentioned that the fact that the individuals who come calling in regards to paying "too much" credit don't go protesting and causing a ruckus at projects that pay "too little". I mentioned that their apparent bias in doing so contributes to the doubt as to their agenda and/or sincerity...
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ProfileArion
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Message 5839 - Posted: 3 Nov 2008, 6:34:52 UTC - in response to Message 5838.  

I mentioned that the fact that the individuals who come calling in regards to paying "too much" credit don't go protesting and causing a ruckus at projects that pay "too little". I mentioned that their apparent bias in doing so contributes to the doubt as to their agenda and/or sincerity...


You just had to wonder how long it was going to take DA to show up over here with Millsap ripping off almost a mil a day in credits. I'm surprised it took him so long. And what did you think was going to happen when Travis and the school got a phone call? You really think they weren't concerned about the PR this generated. The only remaining question is how far Travis is willing to go to try and recify this mess. Maybe the damage has already been done. Who knows...



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