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Profilecaspr
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Message 5867 - Posted: 3 Nov 2008, 20:40:19 UTC
Last modified: 3 Nov 2008, 21:02:32 UTC

Why do my credits drop If I run the stock app. And everyone else runs the "HOT" app? I was doing 140 on the 373's and 100 higher on the 372's!!!!! And now EVERYTHING drops to 104 per wu??? GET U'R S**T together! or Build an App that pays the same no matter what!! I've stuck with this project through everything else,... but not this!! The 373's took me a little over 5hr's and the 372's were right at 10hr's and thats on a 3.0 xeon.


EDIT: these 620's are taking about 7 to 9 hrs! and giving 104?? DA.... ya f**ked us again! gotta go,,..

When they start going after the projects that are paying to "small" maybe I'll be back!! Otherwise I think their agenda is clear! ESAD!!
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory



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ProfileDave Przybylo
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Message 5868 - Posted: 3 Nov 2008, 21:03:30 UTC - in response to Message 5867.  

The optimized app is freely available. It's not fair to the general boinc community if the optimized app is so much faster that those users will get so much credit. If you feel this strongly, why not just get the optimized app?
Dave Przybylo
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ProfileThe Gas Giant
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Message 5870 - Posted: 3 Nov 2008, 21:36:40 UTC

My old 3.0GHz P4 could get 1000 cs a day on MilkyWay and yet only 350 on Malaria Control using standard unoptimised aps. That was grossly unfair to Malaria Control and was purely a function of the credit policy of this project. Now that has been adjusted to bring this project more into line with the larger BOINC community. Fair enough.

Now if you want to get mega credit - use the optimised ap. Or not. Your choice. No need to be offensive about it.
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Message 5873 - Posted: 3 Nov 2008, 22:29:41 UTC - in response to Message 5868.  

Dave, regarding your latest update -- I'm not sure how that is going to be handled, if someone generates more work in an hour than the a set maximum limit, does the work get zeroed out? Or does this limit act to reduce the amount of work one can download?

Just not sure how this gets handled..

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Message 5883 - Posted: 4 Nov 2008, 0:26:28 UTC - in response to Message 5868.  

The optimized app is freely available. It's not fair to the general boinc community if the optimized app is so much faster that those users will get so much credit. If you feel this strongly, why not just get the optimized app?


Because there isn't a Mac version.
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ProfileDave Przybylo
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Message 5885 - Posted: 4 Nov 2008, 1:13:52 UTC - in response to Message 5883.  

The work doesnt get zeroed out, you just don't get credit for it if you're over the limit. Also, regarding the Mac version, we're raising the credits back up because we think it's unfair to those that don't use the optimized app and either lower the per hour limit or keeping it the same (that's travis's deal).
Dave Przybylo
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Message 5887 - Posted: 4 Nov 2008, 1:17:12 UTC - in response to Message 5885.  
Last modified: 4 Nov 2008, 1:17:26 UTC

The work doesnt get zeroed out, you just don't get credit for it if you're over the limit. A


What is the limit?
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Message 5888 - Posted: 4 Nov 2008, 1:53:56 UTC

So do we have to monitor our crunchers individually hour by hour to make sure we don't go over the 'limit' and crunch for nought, or is the project automatically stopping further downloads like they are now to cap WU's per core??
I'd rather see lower credits and limitless crunching.
Also, is the project aiming for 'parity' with SETI using Milksop's app or the project's own official forthcoming app- and is this an apples to apples comparison ie MW stock app to SETI stock app?
Thanks
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Message 5889 - Posted: 4 Nov 2008, 1:59:27 UTC - in response to Message 5888.  


Also, is the project aiming for 'parity' with SETI using Milksop's app or the project's own official forthcoming app- and is this an apples to apples comparison ie MW stock app to SETI stock app?
Thanks


If they play the DA game, it would be stock app v.s. stock app.
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ProfileGavin Shaw
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Message 5890 - Posted: 4 Nov 2008, 2:01:23 UTC - in response to Message 5888.  

So do we have to monitor our crunchers individually hour by hour to make sure we don't go over the 'limit' and crunch for nought, or is the project automatically stopping further downloads like they are now to cap WU's per core??
I'd rather see lower credits and limitless crunching.
Also, is the project aiming for 'parity' with SETI using Milksop's app or the project's own official forthcoming app- and is this an apples to apples comparison ie MW stock app to SETI stock app?
Thanks


I think Dave means the following. Let's say the credit cap is 1,000 per host per hour. Your rig crunches away and you return your results and get your credits. When rig A has earned 1,000 credits in a hour's time window (or something similar) you get no more credits. But you can still download and crunch workunits. The units still get reported back to the server and (assuming no faults on your rig) successfully validated. But as your rig has hit its limit for this hour you are awarded 0 credits. But the unit's results are valid, kept and used to generate future work. Thus you are helping, but you get nothing to show for it.

Think of it as unpaid overtime.

Never surrender and never give up. In the darkest hour there is always hope.

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Message 5891 - Posted: 4 Nov 2008, 2:06:31 UTC - in response to Message 5885.  

The work doesnt get zeroed out, you just don't get credit for it if you're over the limit. Also, regarding the Mac version, we're raising the credits back up because we think it's unfair to those that don't use the optimized app and either lower the per hour limit or keeping it the same (that's travis's deal).


Limit! Now that the optimized client is in use you decide to limit credits? Is this some kind of joke? That's as bad as letting someone run up 25,000,000 credits in less than a month...

So what is the limit? Is it hourly, daily, per CPU or overall total? While I'm not a credit whore I don't waste my excess CPU cycles for nothing. I'm sharing all my systems at 50/50 between other projects and MW. If I'm going to be getting nothing for my time then I want to be able to adjust my percentages accordingly. Something is better than nothing!

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Message 5892 - Posted: 4 Nov 2008, 2:14:23 UTC
Last modified: 4 Nov 2008, 2:18:43 UTC

If I could direct everyone's attention to your task lists, you'll note that all the "per hour limit" does is scale the credit awarded per task to the following:

credit grant * number of seconds in an hour / runtime in seconds ~= 108

There are no "zero credit" scenarios that I have seen. Let's stop the rumor mill on that... Also, the limit is per core, otherwise you folks with multi-core systems would've been tagged with oodles of zero-credit and/or very low (sub-1 credit) tasks...

Let's all step back and take a few moments to think things through based on the facts that we can all observe before getting all bent...
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ProfileDave Przybylo
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Message 5893 - Posted: 4 Nov 2008, 2:36:50 UTC - in response to Message 5892.  

brian is correct
Dave Przybylo
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Message 5894 - Posted: 4 Nov 2008, 2:40:50 UTC - in response to Message 5892.  
Last modified: 4 Nov 2008, 2:43:05 UTC

Dave and Brian

As quoted by Dave.

The work doesnt get zeroed out, you just don't get credit for it if you're over the limit.



How was that supposed to be taken any different than the way it was stated?
If there is a limit then it would be nice to know what it is and how it is applied. If I need to adjust my resource shares to something other than 50/50 to something like 75/25 or whatever, I'd like to know so I can start making the adjustments.
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Message 5896 - Posted: 4 Nov 2008, 3:16:20 UTC - in response to Message 5894.  

Dave and Brian

As quoted by Dave.

The work doesnt get zeroed out, you just don't get credit for it if you're over the limit.



How was that supposed to be taken any different than the way it was stated?
If there is a limit then it would be nice to know what it is and how it is applied. If I need to adjust my resource shares to something other than 50/50 to something like 75/25 or whatever, I'd like to know so I can start making the adjustments.


I agree it wasn't the best wording, so that's why I started looking around to see what I could see...

I think the better way to word it is "you do not get credit above the limit"...
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Message 5897 - Posted: 4 Nov 2008, 3:53:21 UTC - in response to Message 5896.  

I think the better way to word it is "you do not get credit above the limit"...



So based on your formula it works out that as an example:

1 WU with standard app. takes 3 hours = 108*3= 324
100 WUs with optimized app. per hour x 3 hours equals 108*3= 324?

So the guy whose doing 300 times the amount of work gets credited the same as if he were only doing 1 WU?

Somehow I think this whole thing is fishy.... Limits, unlimited, credit and zero credits over limits.... Unless I'm missing something it doesn't smell right.


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Message 5898 - Posted: 4 Nov 2008, 4:10:09 UTC - in response to Message 5897.  
Last modified: 4 Nov 2008, 4:11:01 UTC

You do all realise that you all have know one to blame but yourselves for allowing this to happen ! There would be no issue with credit limits and wu limits if the project admins would take a stand and say you know what we won't allow this optimised app to be used until we can intergrate it into the wu itself where everyone can benefit and we can adjust the credit rates back to the way they were, where everything is fair and just.

I know the project admins have been busy with other things while trying to do right by the people that are crunching their project but you guys have really dropped the ball on this one. Stop the use of the optimised app till you have the time to intergrate it into the wu's and the project can then benefit. And then we can all get on with crunching for a worth while project.
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Message 5899 - Posted: 4 Nov 2008, 4:15:08 UTC - in response to Message 5868.  

The optimized app is freely available. It's not fair to the general boinc community if the optimized app is so much faster that those users will get so much credit. If you feel this strongly, why not just get the optimized app?

So you are going to penalize those who elect not to use the optimized app? That makes absolutely no sense. This place is definitely on my avoid list now!!
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ProfileDave Przybylo
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Message 5901 - Posted: 4 Nov 2008, 4:25:01 UTC - in response to Message 5899.  

No cruncher supporter. If you read the rest of the thread we're not doing that. It works as follows. Theres a limit of say 300,000 credits per core per hour (that's not it i dont think but lets say it is). Say the unoptimized client does 40 workunits and gets 100,000 credits. The optimized clients can do 120 workunits and get 300,000 credits. The optimized client can also do 150 workunits, but it still will get 300,000 credits. All the workunits are counted and validated, but if you're over the limit, you won't get credit for them. Also, to address zed, BOINC has no built in security measure so we can't tell someone "Hey we're not allowing you to use your client because we don't support it". They can do it anyways.
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Message 5903 - Posted: 4 Nov 2008, 5:11:38 UTC - in response to Message 5901.  
Last modified: 4 Nov 2008, 5:16:37 UTC

No cruncher supporter. If you read the rest of the thread we're not doing that. It works as follows. Theres a limit of say 300,000 credits per core per hour (that's not it i dont think but lets say it is). Say the unoptimized client does 40 workunits and gets 100,000 credits. The optimized clients can do 120 workunits and get 300,000 credits. The optimized client can also do 150 workunits, but it still will get 300,000 credits. All the workunits are counted and validated, but if you're over the limit, you won't get credit for them. Also, to address zed, BOINC has no built in security measure so we can't tell someone "Hey we're not allowing you to use your client because we don't support it". They can do it anyways.


Okay sounds good... What is the limit Dave? For all I know I won't even be close to the limit, but I might also be only getting credit for 1/2 my work.

I'm not trying to come of brash or anything but let's just say for instance the credit limit is 1000 credits per hour. I use the standad app and I make 300 per hour. If I choose or there is an optimized client that I could use if I chose to and I got 1000 credits because I was doing over 3 times as much work as when I was using the standard app. Fine...

But this is NOT the only project out there and I don't know what the stats are on people that run more than 1 project at the same time. With that said, say with the optimized client instead of doing 3 times, say I was doing 5 times as much work but not getting credit for the additional work. I'm also sharing between 2 projects. Instead of wasting that additional 2 times at NO credit I could instead reduce my share here and increase it on the other projects to the point where I was at or just below the limit and allow my other projects that give me credit for all my work the extra allowance.

[Edit] It isn't just about the credits. The WU's at CPDN takes weeks, sometimes months to complete. Rather than crunch for no points I'd just assume that extra time was spent trying to finish/ further my progress on the work at CPDN. CPDN is just one example. Einstein takes me almost 1/2 day per WU. I could also be using that extra allownce to complete their work as well.
[/Edit]
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