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6dj72cn8

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Message 9071 - Posted: 25 Jan 2009, 8:52:47 UTC

Hello. I've just wandered back in here are a stroll through SETI territory. I was checking my tasks and noticed that I had been paired against CUDA on a few. Most of the CUDA results were invalid (which is amusing enough in itself) but a few were passed by the validator. One CUDA was granted 53.81 credit for crunch time of 205 seconds, which equates to a credit grant of 945 per hour. Now given that DA's apparent aim is for all projects to match credit to SETI, I hereby call on Travis to immediately increase granted credit on all MW tasks by a factor of about twenty.
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John Clark

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Message 9072 - Posted: 25 Jan 2009, 9:04:27 UTC - in response to Message 9054.  
Last modified: 25 Jan 2009, 9:10:36 UTC

do remember, this project is alpha, so it's not going to run perfectly smooth.


From where I stand, this alpha project seems to be working smoothly. The WUs are being generated and the server(s) are keeping up with the demand.

Moreover, when the stock client changes (frequently or otherwise) the BOINC system and the MW project seem to download and use them seamlessly.

For an alpha project these processes are running very well and seamlessly, for me anyway.

The main beef being expressed here relates to the credit award for completed WUs (and right on the thread topic), and how this compares with S@H.

Part of the argument revolves around what the comparison is made with - the SETI, and cross BOINC community, stock applications or the specifically optimised clients tuned to CPU instruction sets - and MW does not make use of these (yet?)..

The MW stock, compared the original stock client is optimised. However, in the SETI Alex Khan optimised sense it is not optimised. So, I do not see how the comparisons with it should take place. (Danger - more squeeze on credit).

There will be changes in how the credit is awarded as the application gets faster and awarded credit gets out of whack. There might be releases that have problems with certain operating systems and architectures. Thats the nature of the project right now and if that's not acceptable then you might want to wait until we go beta.


I can fully accept the nature of this project, as I state - it is a relatively stable one for an alpha project. I can also accept there will be ups and downs on the speed of clients (optimised or otherwise).

We have seen the impact of the Milksop client, then return to a faster stock, then the Windose fast clients (some bad outputs) then back to the current stock.

All normal for an alpha project.

Because it is an alpha project it would cause less friction to fix on a credit level (comparative to the BOINC community or not) and leave this while the stock client is continuously adjusted.

If this becomes one that pays too much, then adjust the credit on a slower basis to conform with other projects and this upset will be avoided or mitigated.

So, when the new stock client pays too much the adjustment is done gradually downwards (incremental) rather than in great steps (like now). This way you meet the cross project comparisons using stock to stock comparisons and will not see the stirring coming across here.
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Message 9073 - Posted: 25 Jan 2009, 9:12:07 UTC
Last modified: 25 Jan 2009, 9:25:33 UTC

Travis must to define openly his credits politics...

Fixed credits...? There are not... were changed every time than an optimizer volunteer gave him a hint about how to improve/fix his faults...

And every time is the half or more... (and the credits core/hour limit, the WUs in cache limit... etc)

Things never saw in anyone project...

He wants to compare his credits with SETI, but forget than SETI don´t have limits. I would like to see what could happen in SETI if they had set this limits...:D :D :D :D

And, to the comparation, in SETI, with AKV8 SSSE3 opti app I was getting more than 35 - 40 credits/hour/core with an Q6600 in my SETI times. (for to have an easy point of reference)
Logan.

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Message 9074 - Posted: 25 Jan 2009, 9:20:36 UTC - in response to Message 9071.  

Hello. I've just wandered back in here are a stroll through SETI territory. I was checking my tasks and noticed that I had been paired against CUDA on a few. Most of the CUDA results were invalid (which is amusing enough in itself) but a few were passed by the validator. One CUDA was granted 53.81 credit for crunch time of 205 seconds, which equates to a credit grant of 945 per hour. Now given that DA's apparent aim is for all projects to match credit to SETI, I hereby call on Travis to immediately increase granted credit on all MW tasks by a factor of about twenty.


What you see for CUDA is only the CPU seconds and not the GPU seconds. But it's always good if people compare things without having a clue.

Without fixed credits my P3/800 will still make more credits than the C2D/1800. Great job.
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Message 9075 - Posted: 25 Jan 2009, 9:25:48 UTC - in response to Message 9073.  
Last modified: 25 Jan 2009, 9:26:37 UTC

And, to the comparation, in SETI, with AKV8 SSSE3 opti app I can get more than 35 - 40 credits/hour/core with an Q6600. (for to have an easy point of reference)

And with the same sse3 at milkyway you'll receive about 100!
So I would say the credits need to be halved another time!
And they would still be above the seti-level.
Dragons can fly because they don't fit into pirate ships!
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Message 9076 - Posted: 25 Jan 2009, 9:26:37 UTC - in response to Message 9074.  

But it's always good if people compare things without having a clue.

Well, from my request for Travis to increase credits by a factor of twenty I thought you might have worked out that my whole post was tongue-in-cheek rather than serious. But perhaps you haven't a clue.
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Message 9077 - Posted: 25 Jan 2009, 9:35:40 UTC - in response to Message 9073.  
Last modified: 25 Jan 2009, 9:46:02 UTC

Travis must to define openly his credits politics...

Fixed credits...? There are not... were changed every time than an optimizer volunteer gave him a hint about how to improve/fix his faults...

And every time is the half or more... (and the credits core/hour limit, the WUs in cache limit... etc)

Things never saw in anyone project...

He wants to compare his credits with SETI, but forget than SETI don´t have limits. I would like to see what could happen in SETI if they had set this limits...:D :D :D :D

And, to the comparation, in SETI, with AKV8 SSSE3 opti app I was getting more than 35 - 40 credits/hour/core with an Q6600 in my SETI times. (for to have an easy point of reference)


Sorry I want to say per wu not per hour.

and the especific numbers are 43-74 fixed credits in less of an hour per wu. Without a penalty for complete it too fast...


See that machine by example (is not mine)
Logan.

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Message 9078 - Posted: 25 Jan 2009, 9:49:26 UTC - in response to Message 9075.  
Last modified: 25 Jan 2009, 9:50:40 UTC

And, to the comparation, in SETI, with AKV8 SSSE3 opti app I can get more than 35 - 40 credits/hour/core with an Q6600. (for to have an easy point of reference)

And with the same sse3 at milkyway you'll receive about 100!
So I would say the credits need to be halved another time!
And they would still be above the seti-level.


Yes, I think that is a good idea to halve only your credits if that will make you happy.
Logan.

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Message 9079 - Posted: 25 Jan 2009, 9:51:52 UTC

wow i miss lot of things the last days!

Just half an hour ago i have uploaded on my blog the download Link of an independent USB Linux MW client for the Playstation 3 and I came here to post the Download Link ,BUT we face lot of changes here again and i change my mind.

Have a nice day guys!
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Message 9080 - Posted: 25 Jan 2009, 10:07:03 UTC - in response to Message 9078.  

And, to the comparation, in SETI, with AKV8 SSSE3 opti app I can get more than 35 - 40 credits/hour/core with an Q6600. (for to have an easy point of reference)

And with the same sse3 at milkyway you'll receive about 100!
So I would say the credits need to be halved another time!
And they would still be above the seti-level.


Yes, I think that is a good idea to halve only your credits if that will make you happy.

Perhaps if someone had a SSE3 optimized app, or had a stock app with SSE3 optimization incorporated into it, then I expect they could lose half and still be way up ;)


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Message 9081 - Posted: 25 Jan 2009, 10:40:16 UTC

@banditwolf
@speedimic

Thank you both for some clarifications of which I wasn`t aware of !

To bring it to the point : With this credit policy and no opt. app.

for Windows ATM, I stopped working for MW.

Have a nice day, guys and gals, and a happy debate about DA`s "Cross

Project Parity" illusion !

Kurt

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Message 9083 - Posted: 25 Jan 2009, 11:04:12 UTC - in response to Message 9027.  

Also, arguments that we're just trying to keep Dave Anderson happy are probably directed at the wrong person, because he's on my PhD thesis committee :P


My university would consider that a conflict of interest.

Never surrender and never give up. In the darkest hour there is always hope.

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Message 9085 - Posted: 25 Jan 2009, 11:17:41 UTC - in response to Message 8942.  

The problem to give the right credits for a WU will be even more funny when the GPU-apl is ready ;)
Which will be MUCH faster than the SSE2/SSSE3 Win-versions.
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Message 9086 - Posted: 25 Jan 2009, 11:23:48 UTC

Travis you say this is an alpha project and if we can't handle it go elsewhere! I think maybe you need to start looking for some common sense. In alpha there are bound to be problems with the "Official" application amoung platforms, servers running properly, assimilators/validators working correctly and workunit production and distribution. Credit is relative.

Right now you have the backend working decently. You have a stock application for everyone to use. And you have a free for all on optimized clients! I run the stock windows application that the project pushes out and I get granted x number of credits. That's fine. You have optimized clients available for some platforms but not the one that is used on 80% of the world's computers and you decide to penalise them in credits!

I was happy with the credits I was recieving before milksap's app. I saw a huge increase in performance with his and was getting the same credit as before. You said you needed to adjust the credits because they were so high. You were right and cutting them in half made sense. Since then I have endured the problems with running out of work, servers being down, client changes, etc for about 40 credits per work unit. Processing time has been relatively stable and about the same. I have 3 systems running - 1 takes 30+ minutes for 40 credits, 2 - takes about 45 minutes for 40 credits, 3 takes 1 hour+ for 40 credits. I understand that because they are fast, medium, and clunker that its just the way it goes. Now since you've let the optimized clients get out of hand and there isn't one for windows that those same systems will get 20 credits for the same amount of time that they have been running for MONTHS. Sorry but that is just not acceptable for the time and the trouble that I spend dealing with maintaining my systems and dealing with all your problems as an alpha project. You get the clunker so that I can feel good about donating something to what I considered a worth while project and so I have an excuse to leave it turned on 24/7. In the meantime the other 2 go where they are granted something more reasonable for what they do.

If you ever figure this out and get reasonable again I'll donate more of my limited resourses.
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Message 9089 - Posted: 25 Jan 2009, 13:11:03 UTC
Last modified: 25 Jan 2009, 13:28:05 UTC

I agree with everything Arion said in his post. Boinc was the worst thing ever that happened to crunching. People have stopped in their 1000's. I am quite happy to admit that I started for the science but now it's about the credits, each to there own.

As you must know it costs a small fortune to run even four computers from home now and I want maximum credits for my money, I really don't think thats to much to ask. Only been doing this project for a week and I'll be moving on for sure to a project that gives me the most credits per cycle. I only ran the stock application but was VERY happy with 40 credits.
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Message 9090 - Posted: 25 Jan 2009, 13:16:13 UTC

And the exodus begins.
The 20% bone you tossed back out isn't gonna get it.

4870 GPU
4870 GPU
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Message 9092 - Posted: 25 Jan 2009, 13:52:48 UTC

ah, shoot! just when i was getting close to one million. oh well, not much i can do about that it seems.

anyway, good luck to everyone. maybe i will see some on the boards in other projects. take care.....
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Message 9093 - Posted: 25 Jan 2009, 13:57:53 UTC - in response to Message 9092.  

ah, shoot! just when i was getting close to one million. oh well, not much i can do about that it seems.

anyway, good luck to everyone. maybe i will see some on the boards in other projects. take care.....



I hear ya! I'll keep watching the boards but I wanna get that 1st mil. under my belt! Maybe whenever they get an opp. app. for 64windoz.
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory



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Message 9094 - Posted: 25 Jan 2009, 13:59:02 UTC

The solution for everything here is "we're still Alpha". So what in your terms constitutes it as a Beta? The same stock app was used for a couple months with no problems untill the last week or two. Isn't that what Beta is? Running consistently for given periods of time without many problems? Heck that alone beat numerous projects that can't go a week without having errors.
Doesn't expecting the unexpected make the unexpected the expected?
If it makes sense, DON'T do it.
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Message 9097 - Posted: 25 Jan 2009, 14:34:56 UTC - in response to Message 9094.  
Last modified: 25 Jan 2009, 14:35:13 UTC

The solution for everything here is "we're still Alpha". So what in your terms constitutes it as a Beta? The same stock app was used for a couple months with no problems untill the last week or two. Isn't that what Beta is? Running consistently for given periods of time without many problems? Heck that alone beat numerous projects that can't go a week without having errors.



Don't stress to Travis... or he could halve the credits another time...:D
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