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ProfileClank [MM]
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Message 16092 - Posted: 19 Mar 2009, 21:23:40 UTC

Why are machines going dead and not getting new WU's, even when there are WU's available. If you have people forcing reloads of new WU's they really need to be banned for the abuse. It's completely screwing up the WU reload for everyone else. If this is not the case does anyone else have thoughts on it. Patrick
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Message 16098 - Posted: 19 Mar 2009, 21:36:30 UTC - in response to Message 16092.  

Why are machines going dead and not getting new WU's, even when there are WU's available. If you have people forcing reloads of new WU's they really need to be banned for the abuse. It's completely screwing up the WU reload for everyone else. If this is not the case does anyone else have thoughts on it. Patrick

I'm not sure you can ban people when such activity has not been declared as a bannable offence. I have made my opinion on this matter in this post. If such activity is against the rules of this forum then it should be stated so. Anyone giving out information which may lead to the servers being hammered, even though they were warned it may do so, should be dealt with appropriately.


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Message 16126 - Posted: 19 Mar 2009, 23:25:50 UTC

How much is too much ??.....I let my machines run both GPU and CPU work units so they are always working.....It is a shame that some people feel that they are missing out on something and have to resort to writing programs to try and get more work...All this does is screw it up for everyone else......And what do they gain in the end, a couple more points to feed their ego's.......
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Message 16138 - Posted: 19 Mar 2009, 23:58:18 UTC

I'm not all that certain about the connection between server load and those scripts people are talking about.

The faster ATI-enabled crunchers go through their 6/core cache so quickly that they're effectively asking for more work every minute or two. And IME, the server responds quickly every time.

Sometimes the server is unable to deliver more work for some reason, but it still responds just as quickly when contacted. I interpret this as a dry server cache or something similar, but the server does NOT appear to be under pressure by http requests from the clients. No matter if those clients nag naturally every minute or scheduled every 5, 10 or 60 times BOINC's own "when ther's work" delay.

BOINC's exponential back-off makes sense when the server gets swamped by requests or is in danger of being swamped after down time. But AFAICT this server isn't swamped, it just has to say "sorry, out of stock" some times - which it seems to do in a timely manner no matter how often clients ask.

Now this might seem silly (and probably is too), but still:
Imagine the server front-end as a store and the clients as customers. Sometimes the shop assistant says "sorry, we're out, but we might get some tomorrow". Same thing next day and the day after. Should the customer then wait for a month before going back, as long as there's no queue and the assistant is smiling?
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Message 16143 - Posted: 20 Mar 2009, 0:31:45 UTC - in response to Message 16138.  

I am not saying that the system is perfect, far from it....But if enough people keep pushing to get work it has to have some effect on the servers...
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Message 16144 - Posted: 20 Mar 2009, 0:35:36 UTC - in response to Message 16138.  


Now this might seem silly (and probably is too), but still:
Imagine the server front-end as a store and the clients as customers. Sometimes the shop assistant says "sorry, we're out, but we might get some tomorrow". Same thing next day and the day after. Should the customer then wait for a month before going back, as long as there's no queue and the assistant is smiling?


The thing is that in this instance with this project, there is a queue of people waiting. What the people with the rapid-fire scripts are doing is the equivalent of parking themselves in front of the "smiling" assistant and asking "have you gotten any yet?" over and over and over. BOINC is doing that as it is without someone deciding that it needs to ask every 5 seconds vs. every minute or whatever the backoff time was... In real life, if a person exhibited the same behavior as that kind of script, it would be considered to be rude.
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Message 16145 - Posted: 20 Mar 2009, 0:43:40 UTC - in response to Message 16144.  

Now this might seem silly (and probably is too), but still:
Imagine the server front-end as a store and the clients as customers. Sometimes the shop assistant says "sorry, we're out, but we might get some tomorrow". Same thing next day and the day after. Should the customer then wait for a month before going back, as long as there's no queue and the assistant is smiling?

The thing is that in this instance with this project, there is a queue of people waiting. What the people with the rapid-fire scripts are doing is the equivalent of parking themselves in front of the "smiling" assistant and asking "have you gotten any yet?" over and over and over. BOINC is doing that as it is without someone deciding that it needs to ask every 5 seconds vs. every minute or whatever the backoff time was... In real life, if a person exhibited the same behavior as that kind of script, it would be considered to be rude.

Getting caught running a script at SETI will get you banned, and that's been since way back in the day when Rom Walton was admin. Since this project follows SETI (and DA) in some ways running scripts here should have the same consequences.
me@rescam.org
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Message 16166 - Posted: 20 Mar 2009, 7:56:34 UTC
Last modified: 20 Mar 2009, 7:57:18 UTC

Running an update script at SETI did not get you banned. In fact it was even pointless - unless it was so fast it was the equivalent of a DOS attack - then you should get banned. Updating once every 5 minutes should cause no more load increase on the server than running another GPU card. Especially since my GPU card does a wu every 31 seconds or so. So a five minute update is the equivalent of a GPU card in a dual core machine and a 2 minute update is the same as a GPU in a single core machine.

Anything done responsibly is no problems.

The use of update scripts is common across many projects and across many users.
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Message 16167 - Posted: 20 Mar 2009, 7:57:31 UTC

Even Ice uses one....
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Message 16173 - Posted: 20 Mar 2009, 9:21:03 UTC

Let's see it from another position - Energy - Energy is expensive, is rare, does pollute the environment, so i think if a project can't produce work for all, the least effective rigs shouldn't get any work, so the effective ones can use their potential.

For the try to establish opinions i would like to say that it is not fair, that the slow rigs get enough work let's say their rigs are in use more than 95% while the fast ones are usually below that.

So to be fair it would be needed that everyone gets the same percentage of what they could do if everything is fine.

As BOINC isn't done for such situations it's needed to correct its behavior either by using update scripts where i see no problem, as it looks like the servers can handle that additional traffic easily, or by stopping the slow machines periodically to let the fast ones come up to the same utilization.

The only thing that is really unfair and unefficient is to let the fast and efficient rigs run dry so that the slow and inefficient ones have always work.


This just said because i really hate if people want to ban or doing even worse to others because they don't do the things the way they can think of in their petty world.

My real opinion is that the project is the thing that is important and as long the project itself isn't hurt, everybody should be allowed to do the things as he likes. That means everybody can use update scripts or anything else as long as the server can handle it.

When i started MW i had the setting <report_results_immediately> turned on as i've done seti with only Astropulse WUs which take more than 20 hours, so my rigs reported WUs not more than 10 times per day and rig. With MW this was terrible as i hammered the servers more than 2 times per Minute and that with a regular BOINC setting but i decided to not use it anymore and instead used a update script that connects every 5 minutes and if i find the time i'll write a script that will check if there is no work for MW before. I don't have a bad conscience, as the project works well and without the script i had hours of dry times which means for rigs that do WUs in an hour they would run dry for days/weeks as it would be fair if i have to wait a time where i can do 100 WUs that the other rigs have to wait 100 WUs too.

Holger
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Message 16177 - Posted: 20 Mar 2009, 10:36:41 UTC - in response to Message 16167.  
Last modified: 20 Mar 2009, 10:39:15 UTC

Even Ice uses one....

No I don't, I have three. And just are you trying to start now The Gas Giant? Why do all your posts seem to end up naming me with taking a poke at me? Is your life so bad that you have no other kicking post?

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Brian Silvers

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Message 16180 - Posted: 20 Mar 2009, 11:55:09 UTC - in response to Message 16173.  
Last modified: 20 Mar 2009, 12:06:05 UTC


So to be fair it would be needed that everyone gets the same percentage of what they could do if everything is fine.

...

The only thing that is really unfair and unefficient is to let the fast and efficient rigs run dry so that the slow and inefficient ones have always work.

This just said because i really hate if people want to ban or doing even worse to others because they don't do the things the way they can think of in their petty world.

My real opinion is that the project is the thing that is important and as long the project itself isn't hurt, everybody should be allowed to do the things as he likes. That means everybody can use update scripts or anything else as long as the server can handle it.


The difficulty here is you, as someone outside the project that does not have access to the server metrics and/or log files, cannot possibly know what can and cannot be handled by the server. If everyone just up and decided to do the same, stating the same opinion / logic as you, and it brings the server down, then we start going back into your first few sentences where you start talking about "fair distribution". This same discussion happened over at LHC where there were so few results to go around that not everyone got some when they were available. If you start declaring that your dual and quad-core systems are "better" than mine (as in not faster, but in deserving more "respect" or whatever), then IMNSHO (not-so-humble) you should bear in mind that all it means is you might have more money than I do or bought a system more recently than I did, and not that you are any more deserving than me.

Like I said, these scripts are just indicators of a "ME FIRST!" attitude...

IMO, YMMV, etc, etc, etc...

Edit: To lighten the mood a bit, "Beware of the Me Monster" Brian Regan, "I Walked on the Moon"
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Message 16181 - Posted: 20 Mar 2009, 12:07:43 UTC - in response to Message 16180.  


Like I said, these scripts are just indicators of a "ME FIRST!" attitude...

IMO, YMMV, etc, etc, etc...


I have to agree with you on all points. It isn't bad enough that everytime we think things are finally working right something else comes up. Now we have GPU crunching, limited wu's, endless delays for work and new people just walking in the door with the ME FIRST attitude. Next thing you know it'll be "I want a direct line to the server for unlimited work!"


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Message 16182 - Posted: 20 Mar 2009, 12:29:52 UTC
Last modified: 20 Mar 2009, 12:31:32 UTC

Running Scripts to get WU's goes on @ all the Projects, always has & probably always will. I know the First Cel's Project & probably the 2'nd one too people ran scripts because the same Computers always had the most amount of waiting work to do, that would only happen if those people ran Scripts to get work.

The only reason it's even being brought up here is because of the amount of Credit being given out, everybody wants their share of the of the Credits so they complain if they can't get work.

Personally I say it's every man for himself like it is @ all the other Projects where nobody complains because the Credits aren't as great as they are here ... :)
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Message 16183 - Posted: 20 Mar 2009, 12:30:27 UTC

I think we should wait to see how Travis or the project views the scripts. And also can say how they are affecting the server.
Doesn't expecting the unexpected make the unexpected the expected?
If it makes sense, DON'T do it.
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Message 16186 - Posted: 20 Mar 2009, 12:44:36 UTC - in response to Message 16182.  
Last modified: 20 Mar 2009, 12:48:23 UTC

Personally I say it's every man for himself like it is @ all the other Projects where nobody complains because the Credits aren't as great as they are here ... :)


I don't have a problem with anyone doing more work than I am. I say more power to them. I couldn't keep up 9 years ago when seti first started. How I thought I would get ahead is more like a pipe dream.

I admit I'm probably what's called a button pusher here looking for work. At least on my main system because I am in front of it all the time and can see when it goes down. The other 2, one of which is the wife's are sort of just there. I just have a problem when I get up and all 3 computers have been asking for work, are then on 3 hour standby with no work and still being told to try again.

And personally, from my perspective my measly 5000 credits are as important to me as those that are doing 100,000, 200,000 and up. They aren't any better than
me, they just can process more work on faster systems. And I don't begrudge them for what they do... that is unless it interfers with everyone else having the same opportunity to get work.

Bandit is right. Hopefully Travis gets over that horrible flu and come in a tweek a few things to help out. In the meantime we deal with it I guess.

I guess Travis is about like some of the rest of us.. What the heck is it now? <smile>
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Message 16187 - Posted: 20 Mar 2009, 12:54:05 UTC - in response to Message 16180.  

I simply optimize my systems so they work at best efficiency, not only BOINC and its projects but nearly everything and if i can't i don't complain, i either search a solution or i will live with it. If others are better, faster, smarter, etc.. i'm happy with it or i try to keep up.

Me thinks more that people who complain about others way to do things are much more "Me First" "Me right" Me Me Me

I don't tell you, you do things wrong or the way you have to do - you try to tell me that your way is better, that i am wrong - who are you, that you can tell me?

Seems you want to be right, better, first or whatever

live and let live

Holger


P.S. I don't need access to server logs, etc... if there would be something wrong the project admins can tell and if they tell i will respect it and immediately stop such scripts. But at this point i have to ask if you have access to the servers that you can tell they are overloaded? So why are you complaining about something that you don't know anything about? Could only be that you think you are doing things the right way and everybody who's not doing your way is wrong.
I can see servers are reponding normally and admins don't report problems -> so nothing to complain about.

Sorry for the complicated way i describe things, but as my primary language is german i'm not able to bring things to a point easily.
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Message 16208 - Posted: 20 Mar 2009, 16:04:40 UTC - in response to Message 16182.  


The only reason it's even being brought up here is because of the amount of Credit being given out, everybody wants their share of the of the Credits so they complain if they can't get work.


I haven't been complaining because I can't get work. As I have mentioned, my system is >97% utilized right now with this project. I see in my logs a few instances of where BOINC has made multiple requests for work and has been told that none is available, but those spans of time have rarely been for any longer than 10 minutes. One yesterday was over 20 minutes, but that's because that's what the backoff time was from the previous unattended request.

I still maintain that scripts, especially any that make requests less than 1 minute apart, are rude. I can't speak directly for others, but Kevin has a few messages in various threads that have cautioned against the scripts due to the potential for more harm than good if a whole bunch of people start doing the same.

I strongly suggest watching the Youtube video that I posted before... Here it is again: Brian Regan, "I Walked on the Moon"



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Message 16209 - Posted: 20 Mar 2009, 16:14:29 UTC - in response to Message 16187.  
Last modified: 20 Mar 2009, 16:16:48 UTC


Me thinks more that people who complain about others way to do things are much more "Me First" "Me right" Me Me Me


So if I understand you, if you have one place to obtain water wherever you live and you decide that your obtaining water should take precedence over anyone else's and so you decide to try to get every drop of water that you possibly can by whatever means neccessary and then you tell me that I should either do the same or get out of the way, I would be the one who was being greedy?
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Message 16210 - Posted: 20 Mar 2009, 16:33:11 UTC - in response to Message 16208.  

...especially any that make requests less than 1 minute apart...

One minute? Does anyone actually force BOINC to ask for work more often than it's own maximum frequency? No matter how little harm that might do, it certainly wouldn't do much good either.
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