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Bill & Patsy
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Message 17566 - Posted: 4 Apr 2009, 18:28:43 UTC - in response to Message 17565.  
Last modified: 4 Apr 2009, 18:51:28 UTC

Interesting concept 'having *everyone* back off to some minimum interval' sounds like a view toward credit crunching altruism which, if applied to real social problems would eliminate poverty and war. Probably would require some modification of the human genome though....

--<snip>--
Some have suggested that the "no work available" update problem is that the available work cannot load into the scheduler or upload/download server, or whatever, fast enough because the server is getting hammered so hard by all these requests. So if everyone backed off to some minimum interval, then we all could get work, maybe even on the first request, because the server would have time to actually serve us.

If this works, then everyone will be served, and those of you who are pushing to the front of the line will be fed plenty too without having to be so pushy. Those scripts may help some individuals, but they're hurting everyone else. A proper minimum update interval could fix this.

It's sure worth a try.

Yup. It's the classic "Problem of the Greens" (e.g., not very many people will pay their taxes voluntarily unless the law compels them to). That's why it has to come from Travis - from the server side (a server setting that's enforced by the server, as done at LHC and abc).
--Bill

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Message 17570 - Posted: 4 Apr 2009, 19:33:52 UTC - in response to Message 17557.  

I kept trying for candy but I am still waiting!! :(

I like candy.

10 minutes.
me@rescam.org
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ProfileDan T. Morris
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Message 17573 - Posted: 4 Apr 2009, 20:14:37 UTC

At this point its kind of useless. As Travis will be splitting the project. So plesae hold on to your hats.

The cpu guys and gals get there project and the gpu's get there project wu.

Then the war lords like me can have fun...smile...

DD,
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Message 17581 - Posted: 4 Apr 2009, 21:19:48 UTC - in response to Message 17573.  

Well i can tell u guys i have only a quad core amd to run and no gpu tasks on my machine other then nvidia ones , and have had after the outage no work at all.
So i guess there is a huge problem with assiging units somehow and not only for you hungry gpu crunchers.
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Message 17583 - Posted: 4 Apr 2009, 22:17:50 UTC - in response to Message 17551.  

This computer is used for an office automation use and for some little games as Fifa 08 so ...


So as long as you're not do games testing as a living, we can conclude that you bought your graphic card for pure fun.

I don't know why I tell you this, I do what I want with my money that's all. A lot of people do same thing and so what? It's our hobby ! Can you Respect this?


So you buy graphic cards as a hobby without having fun? So if your hobby is computer games and you are still unhappy about it, you should consider changing your hobby.

I bought my graphic card for the same reason (computer games) and am happy about the increase of details games can now produce. And I'm also happy that I can contribute this huge amount of calculation power to a project where one single graphic card is crunching double the amount of WUs than all the computers I combined together to crunch Einstein@Home-WUs (it dropped from seven times when the server was able to deliver more WUs).

Am I unhappy about that? No. I can see progress here being done and it's just a matter of time when other projects will also take advantage of this technique. So all the upset of people with GPUs claiming their first right on WU-reception is just a matter of time and you can continue be unhappy with your hobby as you wish.


Regards, Lothar
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Message 17584 - Posted: 4 Apr 2009, 22:39:38 UTC - in response to Message 17583.  


So you buy graphic cards as a hobby without having fun? So if your hobby is computer games and you are still unhappy about it, you should consider changing your hobby.


Lol

Who said it was my personnal computer? I'm not alone in my house... I'm not playing games, sorry ... it's not that my hobby

In my house there are two laptops, two desktops and a home server on linux for four users, each people has their own utilisation...

I'm happy for you if you are happy with games, so can we stop here please? You're happy with your own utilisation, I am happy with my own utilisation, so all of us are happy. What else? :)

This is my last post

Peace


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Message 17595 - Posted: 5 Apr 2009, 1:46:05 UTC - in response to Message 17573.  

At this point its kind of useless. As Travis will be splitting the project.
--<snip>--

How long will that take? My suggestion should take about a minute to implement -- it's just a server setting. Splitting the project looks like it's going to take a little longer.
--Bill

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ProfileDan T. Morris
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Message 17598 - Posted: 5 Apr 2009, 2:05:19 UTC - in response to Message 17595.  

At this point its kind of useless. As Travis will be splitting the project.
--<snip>--

How long will that take? My suggestion should take about a minute to implement -- it's just a server setting. Splitting the project looks like it's going to take a little longer.


By the looks of your rac I see that you have maybe one or two machines on this project. Well to do as you ask would cause a drop in total project production to maybe 25 % of what it is now. so you would ask Travis to dump 75% of his data being done daily to make a few happy. As you and many others may be aware that this is a work in progress project. It may not make everyone happy but the end result of this project will be more work done in less time. I also understand that it is making some upset that the work is not there all of the time but lets just face it. Those like myself have many thousands of dollars in computer systems, and this is one of our main hobbies. My daily output production is in excess of 500k Now you would have me stop my machines so that those who have one or two machines may be happy that they got to get up to 10k per day. NOT!!

As to when the project will split? only Travis will know. But until that happens Be happy.......

PD-DD,




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Bill & Patsy
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Message 17603 - Posted: 5 Apr 2009, 4:08:27 UTC - in response to Message 17598.  

At this point its kind of useless. As Travis will be splitting the project.
--<snip>--

How long will that take? My suggestion should take about a minute to implement -- it's just a server setting. Splitting the project looks like it's going to take a little longer.


By the looks of your rac I see that you have maybe one or two machines on this project. Well to do as you ask would cause a drop in total project production to maybe 25 % of what it is now. so you would ask Travis to dump 75% of his data being done daily to make a few happy. As you and many others may be aware that this is a work in progress project. It may not make everyone happy but the end result of this project will be more work done in less time. I also understand that it is making some upset that the work is not there all of the time but lets just face it. Those like myself have many thousands of dollars in computer systems, and this is one of our main hobbies. My daily output production is in excess of 500k Now you would have me stop my machines so that those who have one or two machines may be happy that they got to get up to 10k per day. NOT!!

As to when the project will split? only Travis will know. But until that happens Be happy.......

PD-DD,




Good Grief, Dr. Dan!! A little touchy are we? It's not helpful for you to misrepresent the proposal. Perhaps if you let go of your angst and choose instead to understand the facts, you'll realize that there will not be a drop in total project production but just the opposite. Please go back and read what I've previously posted. There is plenty of work out there for everyone, including you. (Again, see Server Status, as I indicated earlier below.) The problem appears to be that the spammers are choking the server so the server doesn't get a chance to distribute all the work that's already there and available. If the server causes the spammers to back off just a little and stop hammering it so badly, more work will flow. Even to you!! Because each time you ask for work, it will be available and you'll get what you need, unlike now.

You should be supporting this proposal. It's in your best interest too. It will improve work flow to everyone. And until you understand it, please don't make false statements that might get other folks upset.

Finally, suppose I'm wrong. Are you implying that Travis is a fool? Or stupid? That he'd leave it on as the project tanked? Good grief! (Again.) If it doesn't work, he'll shut it off, and no real harm will have been done. It's called an experiment. Scientists do these sorts of things, Dr. Dan.

Thanks for your understanding.
--Bill

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ProfileDan T. Morris
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Message 17605 - Posted: 5 Apr 2009, 5:08:22 UTC
Last modified: 5 Apr 2009, 5:09:42 UTC

I give up. I guess some just don't see it for what it is...must be the forest not seen for all those trees..
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Message 17606 - Posted: 5 Apr 2009, 5:11:45 UTC
Last modified: 5 Apr 2009, 5:13:46 UTC

One of the project admins said that the problem is that the database is on the same disk as the server software. (which would rellay make sense as the limiting factor)

somewhere else it was stated that the project runs very smoothly

If the problem were the requests, the server couldn't keep up, but they're very constantly producing WUs, just not enough. That indicates that there is some other limiting factor. It couldn't be the requests as they rise every day but the servers are very stable. The status page only gives a snapshot at some given point and travis stated that ther was a problem with it.

You conclusion that the problem comes from requests isn't fact-based and it is wrong.

Fact is: the project hasn't any problem, all the work it could produce will be done. They're working on a higher output. Until this is done there will be not more work to do.
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Message 17607 - Posted: 5 Apr 2009, 5:13:02 UTC

WOW, no Wu abuse going on here. For you guys who are whining, I have to respect Kevin for his input. I can't spend the money he can so more power to him. You will respect the fact that he warned EVERYONE this was going to happen. The effect you have now is the 200+ a day moving to MW. Guess what guys you were late to the game and it takes a toll on all of us. I was doing high 90's then 60k and now 50k on 1 4870. I see a pattern here...Oh well. If MW gets everything right it won't matter, the real rush will be on then. It will make this look like a light breeze compared to the hurricane that will follow once anyone can crunch 100k a day. SO UNDERSTAND IT CANNOT BE FIXED! the beast will keep growing because of the appetite for points. It's a shame too, I thought MW would open the door for gpu crunching and others would follow. The problem is it won't happen soon enough. More power to you Kevin, your personal investment is met with jealousy instead of respect. The rest of you are idiots for attacking him, I'm waiting to see how much he's got when the problem gets better.

I told this story to PB awhile ago.

When boinc was coming online Seti converted all classic workunits to boinc standards. A single Wu back then could take over a day to complete. In that time I had done 1111 classic Wu's, after conversion they were worth 2400 pts. It was like starting over and I quit for a few years after that. You have the same thing happening again. People that have been crunching for years I passed in a matter of DAYS. The gpu is the next evolution in crunching and yes it will make some feel that all that work was for nothing. A year from now the dust will settle. Older machines may finally be put to rest, who knows maybe not. The crunching will continue though and you need to do what you are comfortable with. If your goal is to have one of the top 100 scores, right now you need to be here. If you are into the science, those other projects still exist. Remember, the points don't mean ANYTHING but bragging rights, that's all. I like to have a pretty good score but I also pay respects to the other projects. When did this turn into life or death. Have fun with your friends and your team and help some colleges along the way. Later, Patrick
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Message 17608 - Posted: 5 Apr 2009, 5:22:23 UTC

As long as $170.00 can translate into almost 100k a day it's tough to see an end to the problem. If output is increased more people will buy gpu's. They are just waiting for the fix. Your looking at 1 gpu = 40 rigs. It's just to tempting of an offer from a cost per point value. It can only be balanced by lowering the point value per Wu. Otherwise you cannot stop the wave of gpu's that will emerge. Honestly if Wu's increase you don't think gpu's will be there. The reward is just too high. Remember, this is no different than an arms race....how much money you got? Patrick
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Message 17610 - Posted: 5 Apr 2009, 6:17:47 UTC - in response to Message 17608.  
Last modified: 5 Apr 2009, 6:36:47 UTC

As long as $170.00 can translate into almost 100k a day
... there's a chance to do more complex work

it's tough to see an end to the problem.
...there is no problem at all

If output is increased more people will buy gpu's. They are just waiting for the fix. Your looking at 1 gpu = 40 rigs. It's just to tempting of an offer from a cost per point value.
...good for the projects

It can only be balanced by lowering the point value per Wu. Otherwise you cannot stop the wave of gpu's that will emerge.
...no one wants to stop this and granting less credit will be less credit for all, so nothing will change.

Honestly if Wu's increase you don't think gpu's will be there. The reward is just too high. Remember, this is no different than an arms race....how much money you got? Patrick

It is no war against gpus, it's good that they're here for the science and economy. hopefully there will be more projects doing more complex science, things that couldn't even thought of because of too less power even with distributed computing.

More power is good!!!
the only problem we have are people that think they aren't rewarded enough and therefore want to stop technological progress. Think of Moores Law from 1965. it is still correct and it actually will until 2029(source: Intel) (i think it will much longer)

and the crunshing speed grows exponential to this
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Message 17626 - Posted: 5 Apr 2009, 13:20:52 UTC - in response to Message 17610.  

Moore's Law will fail when chip manufacturing gets below 10nm range. At that distance, quantum tunnelling of electrons results in energy going nuts, and can't be controlled. This is the physical limit, unless a material is developed that can stop quantum tunnelling (which won't happen, ever).

After that point, it really is all about efficiency and anticipating the next instruction. People will have to think outside the box.

It can only be balanced by lowering the point value per Wu. Otherwise you cannot stop the wave of gpu's that will emerge.


Balance?? If you remember, 100 cobblestones was originally the equivalent of 1000/1000 benchmarks over one day - or the equivalent of a P3 800Mhz running all day. The GPUs excel at certain types of calculations, and the 48xx series are essentially 800 cores at once in parallel. So, the person with 800 single core CPUs should be docked points purely based on the amount of hardware he has? You're talking some bull. The wave of GPUs is WELCOMED by those who run the projects - because they can do the science quicker.

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Message 17628 - Posted: 5 Apr 2009, 13:58:44 UTC - in response to Message 17626.  

which won't happen, ever

Tamensi movetur ;)
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Message 17629 - Posted: 5 Apr 2009, 14:08:24 UTC - in response to Message 17628.  

which won't happen, ever

Tamensi movetur ;)


;)
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Message 17643 - Posted: 5 Apr 2009, 16:21:03 UTC
Last modified: 5 Apr 2009, 16:27:48 UTC

Your being unrealistic if you think MW can supply enough work. There are not even 150 gpu's and the site is starving to give out work. How about 1500 or 15,000, how about 150,000. These are not unrealistic numbers. It's the power of the gpu that will prevent it from balancing. To say there is no problem is nothing more than ignoring the problem. It's already here. Gpu's are coming online far faster than MW will ever be able to supply. That's why daily averages are dropping. Any increase by MW will only create a rush for a piece of the pie. Other projects are not even close to helping this pressure. The issue here is gpu's will constantly outstrip supply. Also lets be realistic, Moore's law is a real pretty graph and it has NOTHING to do with this. Can I show you a graph that shows the changing color of the sky...You need gpu support from other projects and that is not even close to happening. The magnet at this point is MW. They were overwhelmed when there were only 70 gpu's. So it is nothing more than simple math. The point reduction theory is nothing more than an attempt to stop the flow of people moving to MW. Once supply is increased people will decide at the same time - Hey I'm getting a gpu so I can get some killer points. People will not make an investment unless they can see a return, hence it will be even worse at that stage. Finally you might want to look up the definition of an arms race. At this point if you want to be in the lead you have to throw money at the problem ( buy more gpu's )to get a larger share. I have no problem with an opinion or discussion to think out an issue but to pick apart what I said with absolutely nothing more than short blank statements and a pretty, unrelated gragh is nothing more than " hey look at me, I wanna argue, can I, can I please..." Let me give you an angle to argue, try this. Has anyone given any thought to the size of the internet pipe needed by MW to move a 1000 times the data they are moving now, how about 10,000? Now let's move to the server, staff and so on...Hell has anyone thought just how much work MW even has? I could go on and these are BASIC issues that do have answers ( I thought I would start with the easy ones .) Now look at the fact that people are already holding MW accountable for the lack of work because they bought a nice shiney card and they don't feel that they are getting their fair share. This is nothing more than being late to a game that already has too many players. Ya, there is no problem, won't be any problem in a month either. I knew I should have stayed out of the rabbit hole. Patrick
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Message 17652 - Posted: 5 Apr 2009, 18:55:43 UTC

Here's another pretty graph.



Pretty pointless getting another GPU atm.
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Message 17662 - Posted: 5 Apr 2009, 20:42:12 UTC
Last modified: 5 Apr 2009, 20:44:20 UTC

Your right, and thanks for the chart. This one has some use. Average was 7-8 million then ramped up to 21 million and last fell back to 14 million after the incident.
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