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Profileverstapp
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Message 23229 - Posted: 24 May 2009, 21:19:32 UTC

It was just a snide comment on us scripters.
Cheers,

PeterV

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Brian Silvers

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Message 23231 - Posted: 24 May 2009, 22:03:42 UTC - in response to Message 23227.  
Last modified: 24 May 2009, 22:07:55 UTC

If there was a DOS attack taking place then the message would not be the no work available message, but the dreaded http 404 error (or whichever one it is).


The router(s) and/or server(s) are able to keep up with the HTTP requests, so far. The issue never has been, so far, with the capability of keeping up with HTTP requests. When you are told that there is no work, that is a successful HTTP transaction. What you all have been overloading is the BOINC Feeder <--> BOINC Scheduler daemon interfacing. I don't know why this is so difficult for so many to understand. There is a limited-flow pipe that doesn't have anything to do with TCP/IP...and you keep asking more and more and more from it. It's not going to be helpful...
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ProfileThe Gas Giant
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Message 23242 - Posted: 24 May 2009, 23:30:18 UTC - in response to Message 23231.  
Last modified: 24 May 2009, 23:31:49 UTC

If there was a DOS attack taking place then the message would not be the no work available message, but the dreaded http 404 error (or whichever one it is).


The router(s) and/or server(s) are able to keep up with the HTTP requests, so far. The issue never has been, so far, with the capability of keeping up with HTTP requests. When you are told that there is no work, that is a successful HTTP transaction. What you all have been overloading is the BOINC Feeder <--> BOINC Scheduler daemon interfacing. I don't know why this is so difficult for so many to understand. There is a limited-flow pipe that doesn't have anything to do with TCP/IP...and you keep asking more and more and more from it. It's not going to be helpful...

WOOHOO!

So there is no DOS attack occuring by the folks using scripts, glad that's been put to bed.

The issue is the amount of work that is able to be generated and then fed to the computers asking for work. Basically, there isn't enough work being fed to the computers which are asking for work.

The folks who are using an update script are saying gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme, the folks not using a script are saying gimme and every-now-and-then one of the gimme's is being partially satisfied. I know I haven't seen a max of 6 tasks per core downloaded in days and I can go for hours without seeing a wu downloaded.

It appears as though there is enough work being generated to keep the projects science requirements happy, but like anyone who has too many resources, they are now looking at how best to utilise those resources.

I think the lack of work is a relatively short term pain for a long term gain...

Has this been a lesson for all the projects? If you want participants, just allow the volunteers access to your science code to allow it to be optimised and as long as the results returned are valid, sit back and watch the volunteers come flocking to reap the benefits of improved credit until a bottleneck is reached. Then work around the bottleneck and get dragged away from doing the science by having to fix/work around the bottlenecks/bugs in BOINC ...hmmmm reminds me of at least one other project......
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Bill & Patsy
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Message 23252 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 2:22:31 UTC

The folks using scripts are perpetrating a DoS attack. The intent of the scripters is to force their own way to the head of the line so that the scripters can have it to themselves, thereby making the service unavailable to others. The attack fits the Wikipedia definition: "an attempt to make a computer resource unavailable to its intended users. ...it generally consists of the concerted efforts of a person or persons to prevent an Internet site or service from functioning efficiently...". See the full Wikipedia article Denial-of-service attack. The article establishes that the scripters are perpetrating a DoS attack.
--Bill

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Message 23253 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 2:26:50 UTC

So now that we're all agreed that its all my fault...
Cheers,

PeterV

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Message 23258 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 2:56:52 UTC
Last modified: 25 May 2009, 3:20:42 UTC

@Bill You have it totally backwards.

Lack of work is not caused by those that use scripts - PERIOD.
The reason there are those using scripts is because lack of work.

Some people here have real short term memories I think.

When this project first started, and for months afterward, work was hard to get.. after several months of on and off work, and several fixes to the WU generator, things settled down and work was plentiful, ( then came the GPU. And many of us jumped on the GPU bandwagon. Then as more and more started attaching new hosts, and running more and more GPU's the work became more and more scarce. And this continues, have you noticed that the number of new hosts on daily basis keeps going up, and the amount of work done stays constant?
Simple rule of supply and demand. More hosts against a finite amount of work, means less work per host.

As more hosts attached, available work per host became less and less.
Then someone decided it was a wise and smart thing to announce to the world the use of scripts.

It was not the other way around. If work as readily available, scripts would not have been used in the first place.

The work generator is the culprit, it just can not keep up with the current work demand. Scripting is not slowing down the work generator.

By implementing a back-off routine like you suggested will not produce more work. It will only spread the work out a bit more between hosts, but not much. As those with larger farms will still be requesting more often.

The fix is to generate more work, or generate longer WU's for the GPU. Hmmm.

Maybe we should have a GPU only project.

Never at anytime did anyone promise anyone a full cache of work. If you feel like you are not getting "your share" then attach to a different project or a couple of different projects.
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Message 23259 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 3:06:34 UTC - in response to Message 23252.  

The folks using scripts are perpetrating a DoS attack. The intent of the scripters is to force their own way to the head of the line so that the scripters can have it to themselves, thereby making the service unavailable to others. The attack fits the Wikipedia definition: "an attempt to make a computer resource unavailable to its intended users. ...it generally consists of the concerted efforts of a person or persons to prevent an Internet site or service from functioning efficiently...". See the full Wikipedia article Denial-of-service attack. The article establishes that the scripters are perpetrating a DoS attack.



Correct, that is the defintion of DOS attack. And......

We are not experiencing a DOS. You can still get to the web site, in fact, it is much more responsive than other projects I am working on. Since the web pages, message boards and BOINC servers/feeders all use the same IP address, where is this DOS attack?

And just who are the intended users here? You? Of course it is. Me? Of course it is. Verstapp - the bad man scripter - Of course it is.
Can you stil get to the server? Yes you can. Can I still get to the server? yes I can. So even if your post regarding the definition of a DOS attack may be correct, it is not correct here.

The server is not generating any less work because of scripting. And those that are scripting do not have the intent of crashing the servers or the site.

There are much better and easier ways to inflict a DOS attack. And "PING" is not one of them.



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Brian Silvers

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Message 23263 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 3:55:00 UTC - in response to Message 23258.  


By implementing a back-off routine like you suggested will not produce more work. It will only spread the work out a bit more between hosts, but not much. As those with larger farms will still be requesting more often.


At this point, I'd actually be in favor of that so at least the continual complaining might be less, or at least it would be different...


The fix is to generate more work, or generate longer WU's for the GPU. Hmmm.

Maybe we should have a GPU only project.

Never at anytime did anyone promise anyone a full cache of work. If you feel like you are not getting "your share" then attach to a different project or a couple of different projects.


I tried advocating that to people who want to bang on the server. At least at one point in time it appeared as though you agreed.

Honestly, I hope the GPU project gets running soon so that you all (third person) can compete with yourselves and script all you want...
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ProfileSpankinmonkee [TopGun] Division SETI.USA
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Message 23264 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 4:01:51 UTC - in response to Message 23263.  


By implementing a back-off routine like you suggested will not produce more work. It will only spread the work out a bit more between hosts, but not much. As those with larger farms will still be requesting more often.


At this point, I'd actually be in favor of that so at least the continual complaining might be less, or at least it would be different...


The fix is to generate more work, or generate longer WU's for the GPU. Hmmm.

Maybe we should have a GPU only project.

Never at anytime did anyone promise anyone a full cache of work. If you feel like you are not getting "your share" then attach to a different project or a couple of different projects.


I tried advocating that to people who want to bang on the server. At least at one point in time it appeared as though you agreed.

Honestly, I hope the GPU project gets running soon so that you all (third person) can compete with yourselves and script all you want...


The real winner here is the project!! More science is being done than EVER before.
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Message 23266 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 4:24:21 UTC - in response to Message 23264.  


The real winner here is the project!! More science is being done than EVER before.


True, but some of that additional amount is going to other projects because instead of running scripts, some of us just download work from elsewhere... ;-)
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Message 23267 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 4:32:08 UTC - in response to Message 23266.  


The real winner here is the project!! More science is being done than EVER before.


True, but some of that additional amount is going to other projects because instead of running scripts, some of us just download work from elsewhere... ;-)


Then thats even better then...as other projects gain more science being done along with MW.

Gotta run and have a great Memorial Day weekend....be safe1
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Message 23269 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 5:28:48 UTC - in response to Message 23267.  

There you go -- the amount of science being done here each day has probably leveled off. Then again, between the optimized CPU application, the ATI_GP optimized application, and the *4x* increase in users, a rational person would expect to run into a constraint.

Once the GPU project is up and running, and especially once an optimized application for ATI GPU's is available on the GPU side, the 'crowding' for work on this, the CPU side should abate. That might be a month or so off.




Then that's even better then...as other projects gain more science being done along with MW.

Gotta run and have a great Memorial Day weekend....be safe1


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Message 23270 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 6:23:21 UTC - in response to Message 23264.  
Last modified: 25 May 2009, 6:27:56 UTC


The real winner here is the project!! More science is being done than EVER before.

It's a pity that some have to complain about others doing more science than ever before. According to the stats, on average active users in MW have 1.8 active hosts. Those who only have one host might consider attaching another 0.8 so that they could do even more science than ever, and welcome all new users!

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Message 23272 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 7:37:18 UTC - in response to Message 23270.  

It's a pity that some have to complain about others doing more science than ever before.

That's a red herring. The reality is that the scripters' DoS attack is interfering with doing the most science possible by overloading the server and reducing the total throughput. Brian explained it below:

What you all have been overloading is the BOINC Feeder <--> BOINC Scheduler daemon interfacing. I don't know why this is so difficult for so many to understand.

If the DoS attack were stopped, yet even more science would be done because more total work would get through.

And yes, it is a DoS attack. It doesn't have to be 100% successful before it qualifies as an attack. Go back and read the Wikipedia article. And having a pure heart and the most sincere intentions doesn't excuse the attack either.

The bottom line is that MilkyWay@home is under a scripters' DoS attack that is reducing the total possible work throughput, and thus reducing the total science that could be done.
--Bill

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Message 23276 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 9:49:21 UTC - in response to Message 23272.  

It's a pity that some have to complain about others doing more science than ever before.

That's a red herring. The reality is that the scripters' DoS attack is interfering with doing the most science possible by overloading the server and reducing the total throughput. Brian explained it below:

What you all have been overloading is the BOINC Feeder <--> BOINC Scheduler daemon interfacing. I don't know why this is so difficult for so many to understand.

If the DoS attack were stopped, yet even more science would be done because more total work would get through.

And yes, it is a DoS attack. It doesn't have to be 100% successful before it qualifies as an attack. Go back and read the Wikipedia article. And having a pure heart and the most sincere intentions doesn't excuse the attack either.

The bottom line is that MilkyWay@home is under a scripters' DoS attack that is reducing the total possible work throughput, and thus reducing the total science that could be done.

You're wrong Bill. There is no DoS attack occuring.

The current limit was hit after a server outage a while ago. Prior to that there was approx 40% more work available.
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Message 23277 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 10:05:00 UTC - in response to Message 23276.  

You're wrong Bill. There is no DoS attack occuring.

The current limit was hit after a server outage a while ago. Prior to that there was approx 40% more work available.

One of the things that I admire about this project are the two administrators, Travis and Dave, who have been part of building this project with colleagues at their university and who are the interface between us and the project. Yes, they haven't been perfect and some communication from them has been was lacking. But this communication from them I am sure of; it's their intention that there are enough WUs for all, they invite and support use of optimized aplications, for all to do more science; They see the 'no work' as a problem they are trying to fix, and have chosen to do it by building another project - MilkyWay_GPU - and move all GPU crunching there, so that all crunchers, CPU and GPU, will have as many WUs to crunch as they are scientifically inclined.

I doubt whether anyone has a pure heart or that the phantom DoS scripter exists anywhere but in a few threads here of late. Sincere intentions I respect, but some of this these recent negative posts (I don't include you The Gas Giant) are making this forum a little depressing don't you think?


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Message 23278 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 10:15:43 UTC - in response to Message 23277.  

You're wrong Bill. There is no DoS attack occuring.

The current limit was hit after a server outage a while ago. Prior to that there was approx 40% more work available.

One of the things that I admire about this project are the two administrators, Travis and Dave, who have been part of building this project with colleagues at their university and who are the interface between us and the project. Yes, they haven't been perfect and some communication from them has been was lacking. But this communication from them I am sure of; it's their intention that there are enough WUs for all, they invite and support use of optimized aplications, for all to do more science; They see the 'no work' as a problem they are trying to fix, and have chosen to do it by building another project - MilkyWay_GPU - and move all GPU crunching there, so that all crunchers, CPU and GPU, will have as many WUs to crunch as they are scientifically inclined.

I doubt whether anyone has a pure heart or that the phantom DoS scripter exists anywhere but in a few threads here of late. Sincere intentions I respect, but some of this these recent negative posts (I don't include you The Gas Giant) are making this forum a little depressing don't you think?

I agree. All this negativity is not good. It looks like people are just looking for an argument. I think we need to steer them to the Monty Python Argument Office. In any case, by my calculations, we were discussing DoS Attacks some 51 days ago and saying that those using scripts should be responsible in the settings they use. Same goes for those using them today.
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Message 23280 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 11:00:14 UTC - in response to Message 23258.  

You have all forgot one thing!!! This is a CPU project,not a GPU project!!!
Of course those that have HUGE RAC's will argue this but it is fact!! How can you say there is not enough work when there are people with over a million RAC??? The work distribution is the problem!! If the scripters would back off EVERYONE WILL GET A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF WORK!!! Just because you can run 1.5 million a day does not mean you should! There are other people at this project too!! STOP BEING SO SELFISH, Let everyone play!
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Message 23282 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 11:27:54 UTC
Last modified: 25 May 2009, 11:30:36 UTC

You've forgotten one thing. This is just a science project. The fact that both cpu's and gpu's are able to crunch this project is irrelevant to the science. Just because someone has over a million RAC only means they have more computing power available to them than you or I do. Stop being so paranoid. Honestly, having a script doesn't do all that much for you...unless I have the 'wrong' sort of script.
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Message 23283 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 11:29:24 UTC - in response to Message 23280.  
Last modified: 25 May 2009, 11:32:54 UTC

You have all forgot one thing!!! This is a CPU project,not a GPU project!!!

That is absolutely wrong. Your Honour, I place before you exibit one, the website "zslip.com" stickied by Travis and offering optimized apps for both CPU and GPU. Such website has been in place for some months now and I submit that the prosecution are trying to rewrite BOINC history by stating that this is not a GPU project and most probably trying to suggest it never was.

Case closed, prosecution please stop the persecution.

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