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Profileverstapp
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Message 23284 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 11:33:21 UTC

... and if all the CPUers stopped crunching for a while then there'd be more WUs for us GPUers. :D
Cheers,

PeterV

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Message 23287 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 12:12:50 UTC - in response to Message 23284.  

I have taken my systems off of Milkyway as per immediately. They won't return until the GPU project is up&running and the kinks have been ironed out over there.

And even then, what's to keep the scripters from keeping their scripts running to get more work for their CPUs once their GPUs have moved? Nothing.


Jord.

The BOINC FAQ Service.
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Message 23288 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 12:43:49 UTC - in response to Message 23270.  


The real winner here is the project!! More science is being done than EVER before.

It's a pity that some have to complain about others doing more science than ever before. According to the stats, on average active users in MW have 1.8 active hosts. Those who only have one host might consider attaching another 0.8 so that they could do even more science than ever, and welcome all new users!


If you'd like to provide me with that additional host, I would be more than happy to attach it. Would you like the mailing address so you can get it right out to me?

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Message 23289 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 12:48:09 UTC - in response to Message 23284.  

other than the ATI users, CPU users have many possibilities to crunch on other projects - there is absolutely no way for a CPU to get out of work in the BOINC world.
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ProfileLord Tedric
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Message 23298 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 14:40:53 UTC - in response to Message 23287.  


And even then, what's to keep the scripters from keeping their scripts running to get more work for their CPUs once their GPUs have moved? Nothing.


Are you by any chance suggesting that the future could see the demise of the 6 per core limit?
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nick n
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Message 23305 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 16:00:22 UTC - in response to Message 23298.  

Hopefully!
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ProfileMartin Chartrand
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Message 23306 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 16:04:58 UTC - in response to Message 23289.  

With the clearing out of AP v5.03 are we perchance going to v5.05? Just a question.


Well it seem now SETI@HOME is facing some lack of work for Astro Pulse.
I haven't had an AP in 3 weeks.
All we are getting is resends.
Server has been dry of AP in like a month now.

Martin
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Message 23311 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 16:28:24 UTC - in response to Message 23214.  

I keep receiving the massage the no work is available,
but the status page lists work ready to be sent out.
Am I misunderstanding the status page or do I need to change some setting? It's been awhile sine I have had a work unit.


The status page is one snapshot in time, taken every 10 minutes or so. It isn't the exact number right this second, so all the work could have been sent out :)

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Message 23312 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 16:30:42 UTC

http://milkyway.cs.rpi.edu/milkyway/forum_thread.php?id=825 Have fun
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Message 23313 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 16:43:20 UTC
Last modified: 25 May 2009, 16:44:44 UTC

From all that I have read in the many thread in this fora, I have found this...

Contrary to whom ever thinks what, scripters are not, repeat NOT creating a DoS attack.
Why? The forum and in turn the website are still functioning. The users are getting responses back from the update server stating 'no work available' or some other explicable response. If any of these things were non responsive, or errored in result then you could possibly have an argument. So until it does get off the high horse with the false statements and accept the the truth cause it is simply not happening like you say it is.

The project is not a CPU or a GPU project.
It is both. No one has exclusive rights to claim it as theirs. The project can be run on both platforms.

The GPU apps can do more work. That is both obvious and true.

The CPU guys can run any other bonic project that they wish. The GPU guys are extremely limited. The ATI GPU even more so.

The project for whatever reason could not see that the ATI GPU application would be this much of a success so they have not moved forward before things got like this. The feeder simply cannot keep up for whatever reason that none of us know for sure.

If ones would read about the GPU project (yes you CPU people) you would see that they plan to bar the use of GPU's running CPU tasks. This would most likely be done by the application used to run the work unit.
However this does not mean that a computer could not run both CPU tasks on the CPU, and GPU tasks on the GPU since there would be a clear difference in the projects.
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Message 23318 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 18:24:00 UTC - in response to Message 23272.  



The bottom line is that MilkyWay@home is under a scripters' DoS attack that is reducing the total possible work throughput, and thus reducing the total science that could be done.



Absolutely not true.

As I have stated before, those that use scripts started using the scripts because of the lack of work. The lack of WU's created is not caused by those using scripts.

As far as your theory goes that if those running scripts stopped, that there would magically somehow be more work, is absurd.

Those with more hosts would still get more WU's, those with fewer or 1 host will still get what they are getting.

If your question is do I run a script? Yes, it cycles between my hosts every 90 minutes. Does it give me more work? I really don't know.

But as of Saturday (2 days ago) the script shut down. Unintentionally shut down because the box it was running on lost it's power supply after a power hit that took out several of my hosts, 3 with ATI cards, and 1 ATI card blew- it can only run 1 WU at a time without crashing the host. And being a holiday weekend I have not been able to go pick up new power supplies for these hosts.

I can only assume that it will not make any difference. And so far it has not.
Any decrease I am seeing in RAC (if any) is because I am down 3.5 ATI boxes.


.
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ProfileMartin Chartrand
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Message 23319 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 18:30:16 UTC

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Message 23322 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 18:33:38 UTC - in response to Message 23318.  


The lack of WU's created is not caused by those using scripts.

That could well be a revelation to some.

"Read my lips..."


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Message 23326 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 19:16:06 UTC - in response to Message 23313.  



The project is not a CPU or a GPU project.
It is both. No one has exclusive rights to claim it as theirs. The project can be run on both platforms.

The GPU apps can do more work. That is both obvious and true.

The CPU guys can run any other bonic project that they wish. The GPU guys are extremely limited. The ATI GPU even more so.

The project for whatever reason could not see that the ATI GPU application would be this much of a success so they have not moved forward before things got like this. The feeder simply cannot keep up for whatever reason that none of us know for sure.

If ones would read about the GPU project (yes you CPU people) you would see that they plan to bar the use of GPU's running CPU tasks. This would most likely be done by the application used to run the work unit.
However this does not mean that a computer could not run both CPU tasks on the CPU, and GPU tasks on the GPU since there would be a clear difference in the projects.



Right lets get this straight....

Thwe project is or was CPU only the only way it has become more GPU than CPU is because
1. Travis decieded to release the code
2. The code release was only ment to be to see if there could be a speed up of CPU
3. Only only reason you can crunch on your ATI GPU's is because some bright spark decieded to muck around with Travis's code to get it to work.

4. SCRIPTS HAMMER THE SERVER if you don't believe me as DAVE

5. I have not been able to get work for my CPU's for over a week because of all your soding ATI GPU's

6. WILL YOU ALL STOP FLAMING.




Smoke me a kipper ill be back for breakfast


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Message 23327 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 19:17:29 UTC - in response to Message 23313.  
Last modified: 25 May 2009, 19:20:02 UTC

Contrary to whom ever thinks what, scripters are not, repeat NOT creating a DoS attack.
Why? The forum and in turn the website are still functioning. The users are getting responses back from the update server stating 'no work available' or some other explicable response. If any of these things were non responsive, or errored in result then you could possibly have an argument. So until it does get off the high horse with the false statements and accept the the truth cause it is simply not happening like you say it is.

There's too much emotion in this discussion for people to be expressing opinions as fact, especially when their opinions are incorrect. Let's please be careful to qualify opinions as just that - opinions. The above quote is an example of an incorrect opinion, as I will explain in a moment.

Another incorrect opinion not supported by the facts is:


The lack of WU's created is not caused by those using scripts.

That could well be a revelation to some.

"Read my lips..."

Concerning this latter error, quoting Brian yet again:

What you all have been overloading is the BOINC Feeder <--> BOINC Scheduler daemon interfacing. I don't know why this is so difficult for so many to understand.

These are FACTS folks. Facts which some have been ignoring. It follows directly that if the DoS attack were stopped, yet even more science would be done because more total work would get through. Certainly that would not completely solve the problem. There would still be a shortage. But the scripts are just as certainly part of the cause of that shortage.

Concerning whether there actually is a DoS attack underway, the FACT is that there is a scripter DoS attack going on against MilkyWay. I previously stated a brief set of facts that demonstrate this, and provided a link to the Wikipedia. I quote that posting again here:

The folks using scripts are perpetrating a DoS attack. The intent of the scripters is to force their own way to the head of the line so that the scripters can have it to themselves, thereby making the service unavailable to others. The attack fits the Wikipedia definition: "an attempt to make a computer resource unavailable to its intended users. ...it generally consists of the concerted efforts of a person or persons to prevent an Internet site or service from functioning efficiently...". See the full Wikipedia article Denial-of-service attack. The article establishes that the scripters are perpetrating a DoS attack.

That was but a quick statement of a few facts to establish a prima facia case. The rest was left to the reader. And whether you agreed with that opening statement or not, if you had done your homework and studied the fuller explanation in the Wikipedia article, you would understand that, as I also stated in another posting below, a DoS attack does not have to be 100% successful to qualify as an attack. All it has to do is to prevent the target of the attack from "functioning efficiently" (see above Wikipedia quote). And it's been clearly established that the scripts are interfering with the operation of the MW server and causing it to operate less efficiently. If the server were not already overloaded, then the scripts would be harmless. But under the present circumstances, the scripts are a DoS attack.

Please go read the Wikipedia article (Denial-of-service attack) so that your opinions can be informed opinions. And as you do, please note the statement in the Wikipedia article that "Denial-of-service attacks are considered violations of the IAB's Internet Proper Use Policy. They also commonly constitute violations of the laws of individual nations.".

Thank you.
--Bill

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Message 23330 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 19:33:15 UTC

Bill, get over it, it is just your position that a DoS attack is occuring. Just because you keep saying there is a DoS attack occuring doesn't make it so. There is sufficient evidence to refute your position, which has been pointed out to you, and yet you keep going on and on. I'm sure the project admins would let us know PDQ if a DoS was occuring.

There is just an overwhelming lack of work available to satisfy all the computers trying to get work. Those using scripts, are in effect, pushing in to get work but that is all. We had the argument back in the days when scripts first came out and it was shown that BOINC behaving 'normally' can contact the project more often than a thoughtfully configured script.

If you keep this argument going then we'll need to consider it trolling.

Please remember if you don't like what is happening here you can go elsewhere.

Live long and BOINC.

Paul.



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Message 23332 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 19:50:12 UTC - in response to Message 23326.  

4. SCRIPTS HAMMER THE SERVER if you don't believe me as DAVE

5. I have not been able to get work for my CPU's for over a week because of all your soding ATI GPU's


Agree completely with 4, users have said they use them, how can that be denied.

I know the addition of GPU's don't help in the lack of wu's. I think if Gpus were taken off of this project cpus might be able to keep stocked on wu's and some of the restrictions could be raised to allow more work flow.
Doesn't expecting the unexpected make the unexpected the expected?
If it makes sense, DON'T do it.
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Message 23334 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 20:03:01 UTC
Last modified: 25 May 2009, 20:15:11 UTC

A denial-of-service attack (DoS attack) or distributed denial-of-service attack (DDoS attack) is an attempt to make a computer resource unavailable to its intended users.


I seriously doubt any Milkyway users are planning this.

Perpetrators of DoS attacks typically target sites or services hosted on high-profile web servers such as banks, credit card payment gateways...


Nothing the like in here but free credits...

One common method of attack involves saturating the target (victim) machine with external communications requests, such that it cannot respond to legitimate traffic, or responds so slowly as to be rendered effectively unavailable. In general terms, DoS attacks are implemented by either forcing the targeted computer(s) to reset, or consuming its resources so that it can no longer provide its intended service or obstructing the communication media between the intended users and the victim so that they can no longer communicate adequately.


Only the top 150 users gets decent credits.
Out of 49,310 hosts (computers) only 17,332 are active and only a fraction of those could or could not run scripts

While a typical web server can handle a few hundred connections/sec before performance begins to degrade, most web servers fail almost instantly under five or six thousand connections/sec. With a moderately big peer-to-peer attack a site could potentially be hit with up to 750,000 connections in a short order.


We are extremely far from this. So MW is not, never was and may never be under DOS attack from it's very own users.

Martin
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Message 23339 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 20:19:19 UTC - in response to Message 23332.  
Last modified: 25 May 2009, 20:19:30 UTC

One thing thats going on and maybe most are not aware. The Top 2 teams in Boinc are battling it out for bragging rights on MW before the the project freezes the old stats. This alone along with the super fast Gpu processing is making an impact on the WU's available. Servers alone have been know to crash when top teams go after it. Again the projects involved are the BIG winners here with the amount of science being done. Myself I run 5 V-8 systems "40 cpu cores. The lesson I'm learning here on MW...is the stage being set for the future Dist computing and that is the Gpu processor. Scripts or no scripts...things are advancing and changing. Gpu's are gonna change the future like it or not....the decision we all are going to have to make in time is do we want to be a part of it. Want to try to run me down for using a Gpu...fine...thats your choice....want to run me down for doing a script...fine thats your choice. Can tell ya one thing for sure...technology will always move forward.

Hope all here are having a great Memorial Day....because without it WE couldn't have the right to have this freedom of expression...

Post away!!
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Message 23343 - Posted: 25 May 2009, 20:33:49 UTC - in response to Message 23339.  

Agreed.
Allthough I do not mind the occasional argument this thread is going away from it's original point and I too is guilty of it.
There are a lot of valid arguments in here and like they say in Tibet
A thousand Priest, a thousand Religions...

We certainly could go on forever at it since we are all different and of different opinions as well.
It is my wish that this thread be made stickied and closed for future reference of all the new comers.
A many answers can now be found here concerning the lack of work and I for one is sure many new comers will probably find enough answers here to make this thread continue!
Remember that many new comers regards a lot of you as knowledgable and could be intimitated to ask away after reading this thread.
Having said that... Peace all!!!

Martin Chartrand
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