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21) Message boards : Number crunching : Credit lowering (Message 31927)
Posted 3 Oct 2009 by boosted
Post:
After a Google search of "how to determine CPU flop count", some time doing research and testing, this was not a consistent way to judge computer performance. With such a wide variance in calculating FLOPS to award credit for work preformed, a slower computer could get more credit than a faster computer. So the best way would be to make all work units the same size, calculate the flops for the work unit and award credit for this calculation. No matter how fast, or slow, the computation was, credit would be the same. This is the best and most fair solution. I think this is being done by some project already. My two cents worth.

That's exactly what I think too.
The projects set a standard credit per standard app running time.
They then calculate the credits per unit length.
The units carry a standardized credit allotment per unit done. Time in calculation is meaningless. Credit is based on work unit lengths.
22) Message boards : Number crunching : It's nearly the weekend, & guess what? (Message 31903)
Posted 3 Oct 2009 by boosted
Post:
And as I said, When this exact same system had that single 4870 installed it would get 100 - 120K a day.
When I added the twin 4850's a little over two months ago now the credit should have gotten to at least 160K a day.

You can look at the 60 day averages all you want. I have been looking at them for longer than 60 days. I have been looking at the for months on end.
I know what they were, and what they should be.
I do not care what my 5 highest days were, or are. I know the numbers that people were getting from these cards before they started playing tiddly winks with the credit system.
4870's were good for around 90-100K.
4850's were good for 70-80K. Given that I have two that of course doubles that.
So at the peak times when both were operating and there were no server issues I should have been pushing 200K easy at MW. That is again what was starting to happen (Sept/9/09 with that peak starting to sharply rise) before the servers constantly played hookie, and they fiddled with the credit amounts because some idiot was bitching about them being more than his project.

Those numbers also show very clearly that there was at minimum a 20K difference between all the credit changes running every day, all day same work allotment on the same machine.

You tend to ignore that I am only speaking about a single host. A single host that has only ran collatz for two days while MW was down. So that it ran Collatz at all is completely mute and meaningless to the numbers that I am seeing and speaking of. You seem to think that it matters, MW was down, and I disconnected from collatz after it came back up.
I stopped citing number after I move the host to both projects.
I cannot be more clear than that.

I am not going to keep arguing with what I can plainly see on my host average tab in the boinc client. What you say has little meaning when what I can see is what the host is reporting on average work. When I can look through the logs and see the last time it got work from the server. When I see that it has been constantly fed work there that point is mute. The average is true.

I am not saying that I am all that important to this project, I never did or assumed that I was. The fact is that this project is letting down the participants with the constant changing of the rules for credit. I said that some time ago and very much stand behind it.
I have also stated that I have moved one client totally off MW because of this.
I have also stated that I will be moving my other client completely off unless this project gets a backbone and sticks to their credit granting system and stops lowering credit for work done.
It is not a threat, it is a clear and concise point for my reasoning. And by the looks of it, I am not the only one that feels this way. I am just going further into detail about it than others.

To be perfectly honest the single and only reason why I joined this project was because it was the only project that used the ATI cards. Now there is another project and hopefully more will follow. So in essence this project got the ATI's by default. That is simply no longer the case and people will move to other projects as more support the ATI, and as project admins do things to piss of volunteers.
23) Message boards : Number crunching : It's nearly the weekend, & guess what? (Message 31895)
Posted 3 Oct 2009 by boosted
Post:

I'm sorry, my GPU credits have been going down hill since the last server crash.
My peak with two 4850's on this machine was a little over 90K and still had a very steep climbing slope. Then the crash hit and it is now leveling off at mid 70K.


You started Collatz on September 19, 2009. Other GPU users are notating problems with the two projects playing together.

According to the graph at BOINCStats for your host, looking back across 60 days it becomes plainly clear that your credit per day stayed relatively stable or went up on that host post-cut (09/11 was the date of the cut). The average amount from 09/05/2009 to 09/19/2009 looks to be in the range of 94k - 104k, which includes post-cut rates. Once you started mingling Collatz into the mix, the rates went down. Additionally there have been work availability issues and some bad tasks here and there.

To state that your credit production has dropped within this project is accurate, but doesn't tell the whole story. Had you been getting the same stream of work as before, not mixing another project in, it would've been higher, just like it was during the 09/11/2009 - 09/19/2009 time period, which was after the cut was implemented.

Meanwhile, CPU users generally only come to within 80% of pre-cut rates.

The stats are the stats, and the stats tell the same general story time and time again... CPU users took the brunt of the cut. Period.

I have only added collatz when MW is down. And I was only running it when MW was down. Right now starting today I am running them side by side on same machine. As of Oct/1/09 I took my 4870 completely off MW all together. So any averages or number I refer to are before that happening.

I can look at my boinc client and see very clearly what is going on. You can look at what ever you wish, I have what is going on right from my client. Before Oct/1/09 I had only run Collatz for a total of 2 days on my two machines.

My client MW numbers say this...
Sept/2/09 it was a little under 70K
Sept/8/09 it had climbed to 85K or so but with a sharp incline.
Sept/9/09 server crash drops below 80K
Sept/16/09 it had slowly grown to 92-93K
Sept/22/09 server crash drops below 70K
Sept/29/09 slowly leveled off to 74-76K
Oct/1/09 server crash drops to near 60K

This is the client that has two 4850's installed.

So given this, at best it came within around 20K of the high points. And I will debate this because before the server crash of Sept/8/09 my level was rising sharply. By the time the crash of Sept/21/09 rolled around the changes were already made and the credits were lowered the first time.

24) Message boards : Number crunching : It's nearly the weekend, & guess what? (Message 31888)
Posted 2 Oct 2009 by boosted
Post:


While I am not a 'credit whore' when a project constantly cuts back on allotted credit vs run time it does put me off a bit.


...and those of us CPU-only folks are the people bearing the brunt of that credit cut, not those of you with GPUs. You can check that out with your own hosts, particularly the Pentium D. In fact, it appears as though the GPU users credit rates stayed constant or went up some. Your RAC "dropping" is merely due to work fetch issues. If you had a steady stream of work, your RAC would actually be higher now, while those of us with CPU-only systems would still be lower.

I'm sorry, my GPU credits have been going down hill since the last server crash.
My peak with two 4850's on this machine was a little over 90K and still had a very steep climbing slope. Then the crash hit and it is now leveling off at mid 70K.
Do not tell me about credit hits... I should be averaging some 220 to 250K (or more) a day on MW according to the old rules with two 4850 and a 4870. I am barely breaking 100 to 120K most days if that. Work fetch issues means I am in the 60 to 80K range.
My single 4870 was doing 120K+ on its own long ago.
25) Message boards : Number crunching : It's nearly the weekend, & guess what? (Message 31872)
Posted 2 Oct 2009 by boosted
Post:

The power users like to see their credits soaring and get frustrated at having to constantly switch between different projects to achieve that.


Another aspect of that is those of us who are NOT "power users", who are indeed here because it's the project we are choosing to support, are getting a wee bit tired of various things.......

IT is not that I am a 'power user' I just equip my machines well. I use them for various tasks and I do require good equipment.
While I am not a 'credit whore' when a project constantly cuts back on allotted credit vs run time it does put me off a bit.
This is one of three projects that support ATI.
This project is constantly changing the rules, and the server plays hookie more times than a high school senior.
Collatz also has it's issues. It is also a hookie maniac, but seems to be getting better. At least over the short term so far I have seen.
Folding on the other hand is not even an option for me(or many others), as I cannot stand the way that the admins treat the users and the rest of boinc in general. IMHO they are a bunch of pricks that do not deserve to have people crunch for them.

So then it a choice of the best of the worst, like many political choices.
This projects which tirelessly reduces credit, yet the same amount (or in some cases more) work gets done. But then again your lucky IF you get work as the project is constantly down.
Or collatz, which seems a it more stable, yet does not pay out as well.

I think I will arbitrarily pick a goal number and once it is met, pull the plug on boinc in general unless things overall get better. Actually I will choose 16 million total credit. That will at least give maybe a few weeks to see improvement. 15 million is just right around the corner and too close.
26) Message boards : Number crunching : Database Borked Again? (Message 31862)
Posted 2 Oct 2009 by boosted
Post:
This what the server page says now!
feeder milkyway Not Running
transitioner milkyway Not Running
milkyway_purge milkyway Not Running
milkyway_av milkyway Not Running
file_deleter milkyway Not Running
Hope its Travis doing updates or something of that sort.
;-p
Yes, given the history of this project I am absolutely sure that is what is happening...
*turns off sarcasm*
27) Message boards : Number crunching : It's nearly the weekend, & guess what? (Message 31833)
Posted 2 Oct 2009 by boosted
Post:
I too have found myself adding collatz to my ATI equipped machines.
I have removed MW from one altogether.
28) Message boards : Number crunching : Credit lowering (Message 31770)
Posted 30 Sep 2009 by boosted
Post:
So move then, Beserk, and stop clogging up this board whingeing about it.


i moved on days ago.

And get even LESS credit. Talk about cutting your nose off to spite you face....go figure.

I think it is more of why tolerate constantly changing rules...
I have already moved one of my machines to collatz as well.
I could care less about credit. However if I am going to donate time, I would like something for it. Constantly having credit standards lowered because of people bitching and moaning that you are getting more credit, but ignore the fact that you are getting more work units done.
The project admins that continuously collapse to these people's constant bitching pisses me off even more and makes me less inclined to help their project.
29) Message boards : Number crunching : Credit lowering (Message 31752)
Posted 30 Sep 2009 by boosted
Post:
>You give out a 5000 sec long work unit
Try CPDN - 4,000 hour WUs available there.


I also run CPDN. Maybe you missed my stats sig.
That was not the point.
The point is if you run a X second work unit, you should get credit for running a X second work unit no matter what project supported application was used to do it.
30) Message boards : Number crunching : Credit lowering (Message 31727)
Posted 30 Sep 2009 by boosted
Post:
Well I see it is not only me that is currently going what the flying F--k.
I got two new cards expecting my credits to go to 220,000-250,000 a day...
Yeah right...
It seems that my two 4850's are going to level off at 80-90K a day and my 4870 is going to be somewhere around 40-45K a day. What the hell, it should be double that...

What the frak happened? If the credits being granted fall in line with the math for the work what is the big deal?

Maybe ALL PROJECTS NEED TO BE TELLING SETI THAT THEY DO NOT RUN OTHER PROJECTS.

All projects have a standard to follow for granting credit. STICK THE HELL TO IT. This is damned ridiculous. Just because people are getting faster computers, and even faster video cards that can crunch does not mean that the slower people can tell the faster ones that they should be getting less credit for doing more work.

If this shit does not change I am done.

You want an idea to base credit on.
Ok fine... the simplist way possible...

You give out a 5000 sec long work unit.
The cruncher gets credit for doing a 5000 second work unit.
The actual time it took the crunchers system to do it does not matter, they still did a 5000 second work unit correct?
The computer that did it in what ever time still gave a valid calculation or response correct? Why should it matter if it was CPU or GPU, or opti-app based?
The project sets the work unit lengths. The projects decide on a value of credit per work unit second.

Is this not the simplest solution for all projects?
They all agree on a baseline of credit for a per work unit second.
So then the projects would be very inclined to create optimized apps. They would grant credit on a work unit length based standard.

Seems pretty damned straight forward and simple to me...
31) Message boards : Cafe MilkyWay : how to delete team (Message 31469)
Posted 24 Sep 2009 by boosted
Post:
well is there a central place I can do this or do I have to go project to project?

I have already deleted the team from several projects only to have it reappear a few days later in those very same projects.
32) Message boards : Cafe MilkyWay : how to delete team (Message 31361)
Posted 23 Sep 2009 by boosted
Post:
The title is pretty self explanatory.
I accidentally created a team a while back and now I want to delete it because the creation emails are getting annoying.
33) Message boards : Number crunching : Low amount of wu on server (Message 30490)
Posted 11 Sep 2009 by boosted
Post:
Looks like the server is getting lower and lower on wu..

My computers are screaming feed me Leroy..Smile.

I thought it was Audrey saying "Feed Me Seymour!"
34) Message boards : Number crunching : having an issue getting my 4870 back up (Message 30264)
Posted 6 Sep 2009 by boosted
Post:
Try another Boinc version. That gives a lot of users problems. It doesn't request work right.

I went with 6.4.7 still nothing with cat 9.8. Installed 9.2 and got it working but video crashes.
Had to go to 8.12 and 6.4.7... will see how it will look playing movies and such since this is my media computer... but it is at least crunching again.
35) Message boards : Number crunching : having an issue getting my 4870 back up (Message 30256)
Posted 6 Sep 2009 by boosted
Post:
Is Boinc or MW suspended?

neither.
The other CPU project is running just fine.
I think the version is 6.6.36 or what ever the default version is on boinc site now.
The ratio is 90/10 MW/other CPU project.
36) Message boards : Number crunching : having an issue getting my 4870 back up (Message 30251)
Posted 5 Sep 2009 by boosted
Post:
so i recently changed my main computer to twin 4850's and they are doing fine.

So I installed the 4870 into my media center machine.
No go. The video is working just fine.
I install driver only (cat 9.8) I copy/rename .dll files, unzip and copy the .19f files into the boinc and MW folder... nothing. Not even computational errors.

What am I missing...
37) Message boards : Number crunching : 2+ 4890s on ame system? (Message 30183)
Posted 3 Sep 2009 by boosted
Post:
never mind I got it worked out somehow... just don't ask me to explain it...

Apo wiporepoleposs liponk bepotwepoepon thepo twopo? :Ppo



Damn that is exactly what I did how did you know?

Just after enough restarts and throwing various Boinc clients and ATI drivers, it started working.
I am just happy to be having 6 work units at a time going.

The twin monitor setup is just a nifty plus...
38) Message boards : Number crunching : 2+ 4890s on ame system? (Message 30178)
Posted 3 Sep 2009 by boosted
Post:
never mind I got it worked out somehow... just don't ask me to explain it...
39) Message boards : Number crunching : 2+ 4890s on ame system? (Message 30171)
Posted 3 Sep 2009 by boosted
Post:
I am having trouble getting both of my 4850's working.
I do not have them in crossfire, they are spaced too far to use the connector.
Both are recognized by the system though. What can I do to get them both working?
40) Message boards : Number crunching : anthing new to say about the GPU only apps? (Message 29413)
Posted 16 Aug 2009 by boosted
Post:
Just curious.
I have not seen anything lately about the GPU only progress.


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